I just had my first failure on one of my rods, one of the guides spun around the blank on me. It is worth noting that this rod was one that had CP on it. I removed the thread and as you would expect there was little or no epoxy under the threads (a no epoxy to blank bond makes a weaker wrapped guide right?) . I had sworn off CP a while back because I was warned this COULD happen. I’m sure I did something wrong in the application of the CP or the epoxy or most likely both. But either way it resulted in a failure that had I skipped the CP would not have happened. My opinion now that I have removed both types of guides is that a CP wrap is nowhere as durable as a straight epoxy wrap unless you bring the epoxy well above and below your thread. There just isn’t any advantage IMHO that justifies using this stuff on guides. One big advantage to CP is that it is very easy to remove the thread/epoxy and do a repair…

No, the wrap is not weaker, well... 10% percent weaker in actual tests. I've used color preserver on all wraps (up to 130lb class trolling rods) for nearly 30 years and never had such a failure as you mention.

The fault was yours - not that of the CP. You failed to get epoxy into the tunnel between the thread and the guide. This creates a shoulder that keeps the guide from being able to shift. And you would have had to do this whether you used CP or not. It's that "shoulder" that keeps the guide in place. This was borne out in the RodMaker tests.

Let's not give CP another black eye because a builder failed to apply finish properly. No offense, but the fault here was yours and yours alone.

................

CP is put on the threads, the threads soak up the CP, and I will say go into the tunnel ? If it does not I would think not enough CP?
Now when the epoxy is put on, it lays on top of the CP. The tunnel should already have CP in it ??
Pretty sells, but I would rather not use CP just for this reason.

There are several things that can happen when using CP and only one of them is good. Jesse

Which one ?

Bill, the only way to get epoxy into the tunnel is to apply it with a pinhead or something and force it into the tunnel. This way the threads have CP, and epoxy is on both sides of the thread.

Bill,

You have to remember that most of the CP is just water or alcohol, only a small percentage is made up of solids. Thinning compromises this slim ratio even more. You aren't likely to build up any depth of CP solids in that tunnel area without multiple coats. Yes, if you got enough CP under and in there the problem would also be solved, but as I said, it would take a lot of coats to do that.

Even wraps made with straight epoxy can allow a guide to shift under pressure. A mostly flat foot sitting on top of a round blank is a shift waiting to happen and you won't stop it by elminating CP from the equation. You must get some build up of something in the tunnel to create that flat or shoulder area. Epoxy is 100% solids and it's not hard to get enough in there to do the trick.

All the finishing products are quite good, including CP. But none are idiot proof (sorry Mike, I don't mean that to sound as if it's directed at you). There is a proper way and an improper way to use anything, including our wrap finishing products. As I said in an earlier post last week, it's always amazed me at the things many builders do with their finish. They get bad results and then decide the finish, or the CP, must be the problem. They're not. If they were, everybody would have problems with them. They don't. In fact, most don't. The number of complaints about CP or any finish product against the thousands of gallons made and sold each year tell us that it's a problem only a very small percentage of the time, and that it's operator error in the vast majority of cases.

I'm going to throw out one more thing that will also tend to help keep guides from shifting on a blank when under pressure. This is particularly important if you build casting rods with the guides on top. If you'll work the underside of the guide with a round file (chainsaw non-tapered type) until you get the guide foot underside to closely conform to the blank surface, you'll not have much problem with shifting. The problem is caused by two surfaces that don't match - a mostly round rod blank underneath what is a mostly flat underside of a guide foot. Match those two surfaces so they fit each other and you'll be much better off. No, it's not necessary and most times getting epoxy into the tunnel will solve the problem, but every little thing just makes the rod that much better and longer lasting.

......................



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/22/2005 09:18AM by Tom Kirkman.

I have been using FlexCoat CP on all my rods for over 10 years. I build many bass and saltwater pier rods. Have yet to have any guide failure or shifting that I am aware of. In building and selling about 50 to 60 rods each year for the past 6 or 7, I would think that if CP was problematic I would be aware of it by now.

I mainly don't use it cause I like the transparent look of thread with out it.
Your right about the guides and preping them. I had a few that were flat on the bottom and unless filed would have rocked back and forth on top of the blank

I knew when I posted that the fault was likely mine and not CP. A question I would ask is how do I get the epoxy under the wrap without making a big mess on the blank? I don't recall reading anywhere about how or even that I should do this and I have read a few rod building books and had some one on one time with an expert.

Also a point I think is worth mentioning is that I have removed a broken guide (guide broke but the wrap held) that I used only epoxy on. I did not do anything special to get epoxy under the wraps when I built it. However, when I removed the wraps there was epoxy there along with the shoulder you describe, I guess it must have soaked through? The guide I mentioned above that failed did not have this effect. It just seems coincidental that the only failure, and there have been two such cases, are with rods that I used CP on.

Tom, would you agree that since I obviously don’t know the correct method for getting epoxy under the wraps but somehow I managed to do it on at least one guide I wrapped, that the no CP method must be more “idiot proof”?

My intentions are not to bash CP. It was here long before I started building rods and for good reason. I am simply suggesting that maybe new builders might be better off avoiding the stuff until they have a better understanding of what must take place to make a permanent lasting wrap.

Mike,

not like me to agree easily with Tom but in this case I have to. Possibly you are missing the point a bit, (no disrepect intended). The epoxy is a casting resin and as such (correct me if I`m wrong) forms a waterproof seal around the threads but does not form any appreciable bond between the thread and the blank. Obviously some may soak through and form a bond but not like 2 pack epoxy or other adhesives.

I also have used CP for almost 30 years and before that model makers `dope' (the type put on model plane wing fabrics to stretch and stiffen them) with no problems. I have even used test rods for a season with nothing but CP on and whilst they were certainly not pretty at the end of it the guides held firm. The shoulder Tom mentioned is imperative. It is part of the overall wrap cover but also forms an upstand as well as a seal to water getting under the wrap and this upstand offers resistance to twisting or movement.

I give a life guarantee with my rods and on the cover letter I state clearly, quote:- ` the small build up of resin at the guide foot is not the result of poor workmanship, it is intentional and adds ridgitity to the guide and forms a seal to the the thread wrap' Billy Vivona made a good point, use a needle, pinhead or very fine artists brush (trimmed even finer) to get the epoxy under the guide foot at the tunnel. I do this first on all the guides and then use a hair dryer on low to blow it under (I know about dust and hair dryers but its never actually caused me a problem at this early stage of epoxy application).

Stan

Obviously the fewer steps, the less likely that you'll make a mistake somewhere along the line, so not using CP is one less step and one less place you can foul things up. However, some epoxies will penetrate inbetween the thread, some won't. It has to do with how long they stay thin. Those with more pot life are apt to get in there and form that shoulder. I've seen others that wouldn't, however. In fact, they didn't seem to get into the thread spaces at all, sitting completely on top and with no CP underneath to at least provide some sealing, the wraps wouldn't last very long.

After you apply finish to all the wraps, set your brush or spatula down and pick up a toothpick or needle. Dip it into the finish and withdraw a single drop. Situate it right at the tunnel opening and leave the drop there. It will tend to wick or migrate into the opening and form the shoulder as well as sealing the tunnel. On larger guides, you may look back a few minutes later to see if you need more. Often it will migrate completely inside the tunnel and require another drop of finish. This only takes a couple minutes to go down and do all the guide/thread tunnels and it really, really adds to the durability and longevity of your guide wraps.

..........

Thanks Tom, this is the kind of information I was seeking. I will defiantly add this to my list of steps. The idea of finish soaking through is yet another good reason to discard finish the second it starts to get the least bit sticky or thick.

One reason I like the LS Supreme products is because they stay thin and runny for a long time. I feel sure they penetrate as much as possible. I use CP on some and not on others. Depends on the look I want. But so far no guide shifting problems to report other than when a big footed fisherman steps on one!

And if you are using some sort of spatula for your application, a little extra pressure on each side of the guide foot will force finish through the threads. At times a little bubble of air can be seen as it's forced out of the tunnel.

I feel that using Permagloss as a 1st coat permits penetration and helps lock the guide in place. Granted that it doesn't provide the color fixation that CP does. It can be used however over seasoned and cured CP. Permagloss penetrates well and cures quickly so a second coat can be applied to the tunnel portion of the guides if needed. It seems to me that an initial coat of Permagloss followed by your favorite epoxy coat gives you an ideal guide wrap covering.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

Something that works for us it to sharpen the handle end of a Flex Coat brush, either 1/8 or 1/4, in a pencil sharpener.
Position the rod on it's side, dip the pointed end into your finish, and let a drop or 2 enter into the tunnel area.
Start at the largest guide, end at the smallest, then rotate 180 and check, you will probably need another drop or 2 on the larger guides, then finish as usual.

Best wishes,
Ron Schneider
Schneider's Rod Shop
Mountain Home, Arkansas
[www.schneidersrods.com]
mtnron40@yahoo.com
870-424-3381

I can't help adding that a blocking wrap ahead of a single foot guide goes a long way towards filling the tunnel and creating a uniform finish. I fill the tunnel entrance first, then finish the wrap. I am using 840 for my undercoat to get some CP.

Have you ever removed a guide wrap that had CP applied as a 1st step prior to application of finish? The wrap will come right off MUCH easier than one where no CP was used.

Lou

That's true, but you won't get it off unless you cut it off. That's true whether you use CP or not. Most fish don't carry razors so wraps made with CP aren't going to fail you on the water in actual fishing situations. In the RodMaker tests, we found that even on wraps made with CP, the average casting or spinning guide will deform and sustain damage before you will break the guide out of the wrap, or even loose in the wrap. Wraps made with CP aren't at all weak in any way.

............