I'm a lifelong FlexCoat user, but decided to order a batch of Aftcote for my next rod. Inspecting the bottles, I found that it smells a lot like FC, but no slight yellow tint in the bottle like FC. Mixed up a batch and the stuff runs very thin, much thinner than FC. Added a little heat to the mixing cup and it released bubble very well. It's been sitting in the mixing cup almost 11 hours now and it is still tacky. I'll keep you guys updated tomorrow.

Okay it's now now 1 am on 6/13/2005, I think that comes to 31 hours. The batch is still slightly tacky. Not as much as this morning. I should mention that I left the batch on the window sill to give it direct sunlight and heat. When I touch it with slight pressure, It leaves fingerprint ridges in the finish. This morning if I touched it with slight pressure, it had a lot of give. I'm sure I mixed it even, but I might mix another batch to be sure. I'm gonna get some FlexCoat and do a side by side comparison.

Peter,Did you leave it in the cup or let it spread out to a thickness that will be used on a rod??How much did you mix?Small quanities are more susceptable to small measuring errors.I`ve used both FC and Aftcoat and both set up well.The Aftcoat seems to set up clearehowever takes a little longer.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

All of my Aftcote rod applications have set up well, with no tackiness. The finish does seem to take longer than other epoxies I have used though. I mix in a small plastic cup and pour onto foil for application on rods. The mixture left over in the cup, however, seems to remain tacky indefinitely (or at least the several days until I finally throw them away).

Jeff Shafer

Any tackiness should disappear in a day or so, but it's not at all unusual for epoxy finishes to take a fingernail "dent" even a couple or three days after mixing. Give it a full 5 days before deciding that anything is wrong with it.

.......

What i have found with Aftcote.

Drying box temp. between 80-90 degrees finish will be set in about 5-6hrs with no tack to it....

With Aftcote you will find that the flexible properties of it will allow you to put that fingernail dent into the finish forever(well 6 months + so far). It never hardens completely like FC and other finishes.....

Russ is dead on about the cure time when the air temp is increased. I have a small space heater in my 'finishing room' & I bet the air temp gets between 100-110 after an hour or so. I normally let it 'dry' for 6-8 hours and all seems to be fine. So far I have mixed batches as small as 4cc (2cc of each part) of Aftcote with syringes and not experienced any problems. If you do not use artificial heat to speed up the curing process, Aftcote will take 2-4 days to get to a non-tack finish. This is not unusual and this is why I use the space heater. After curing, Aftcote stays extremely flexible for a good amount of time. I really like this stuff and it is now MY epoxy. I used to use LS, and while that is a very good finish I have found Aftcote to be easier for me to get the hang of. My finishes come out much more level and bubbles are never a worry like they were for me with the LS. I find that even if I get bubbles during the mixing process or during the application process, the Aftcote is thin enough that they usually pop themselves if I just leave them alone. With the addition of a slight flame you can see the Aftcote literally spit the bubbles out...it really hates them & loves to give them away! It really is great stuff and I can't say enough good things about it. Aftcote has made me 'appear' to be a better rod builder!

Jay

you guys are making me afraid to even try my new Aftcote!

WHY in the world is ALL rod epoxy SUCH a dang hassle for everyone? Why can't the makers CURE the problems the epoxy's have? Seems to me were using INFERIOR products and no one cares. I've never even heard of a two part epoxy of any type failing until I started rod building :-(

ANY two part epoxy mix should be FLAWLESS and easy as pie for even a child to mix/use..........sorry.....but I just "don't get it". That step of the rod building should be the EASIEST of all the things we do, yet it is the factor that can so easlity ruin all the hard work!

Forgive me here, but someone needs to wake up and make a TROUBLE FREE mix and put the others out of business entirely...there.....I said it......now you can slam me, I can take it :-)

DR

Jay:

How would you like to reduce your electric bill in your drying room and still have the finish dry and without dust? If you would, build a drying box, and install three or four incandescent lights, small ones, in the box. Install a thermometer and you will be able to judge just how warm the box will get. I suspect you will be surprised. I built one and I keep it at about 90 degrees F. when the rod is in it. I also built a small regulator in the top, i.e. a 2 inch hole with a piece of aluminum covering it. If it is too hot, I open about 1/4 inch of the hole. Do not get fancy. A simple drying box will allow the finish to cure in a warm, dust-free environment.

Doug Weber

Duane,

Epoxies don't have problems. They all work perfectly. Don't confuse user error with product problems. 99.9% of all finishing problems are caused by the finisher.

Measure and mix your epoxy carefully, apply it reasonably quickly, and then let it do what it knows how to do.

I would say that most problems with epoxy come from builders who try to economize (falsely) and try to mix too little, don't mix it thouroughly, spend too long getting it on the wraps, torch it, thin it, etc.

Measuring, mixing and applying epoxy is the easiest part of rod building. You just have to be careful not to add too many steps or make it harder than it needs to be - that's where many go wrong. Too much effort and too many steps when they aren't required. And... most guys aren't having problems. It's just that you're far more likelly to find someone here who is having a problem and needs help than 600 guys reporting something like, "Applied epoxy today and got another perfect job." The successes are commonplace and thus don't get reported. No need for it.

And for the record, nobody gets "slammed" on this site - it's not allowed.

..........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2005 05:40PM by Tom Kirkman.

There was a post below about the thing that we dislike the most when building a rod. I was surprised how many said putting the finish on the rod.

I've said before that the easiest thing for me when building a rod is putting the finish to it and it really is. Does that mean I never goof up when putting it on? No, but it's so easy to fix in the very few times this happens.

Read how to do it properly and then practice. It's simple and comes out nearly perfect nearly every time. I have a phobia about green with building rods; don't let finish be your phobia about rod building - it really is easy to get it down so that it's just one more step in building that new beauty!!

Putter
Williston, ND

Tom,

The "slammed" was only a joke-hense the smileeeee face :-)

I don't totally agree Tom. I sat down with two brands of epoxy, mixed each perfectly with syringes with varying results on each. I actually "wasted" two purchases of epoxy just playing with them to see how they'd vary, and they DID vary! This was done just to see what "way" worked well for me.

I understand the issue of "here's my problem" on the site, understandably I'm sure that takes place. Yet, we have guys writing articles, giving instructions, "here's my way" of doing it, don't vary once you find a "system" that works for you, and so on.....

For this, there HAS to be troubles. Just for instance, you "should" mix at least 3cc of each product 50/50. In my humble opinion, you should be able to mix TWO DROPS and never once have a problem.

Lets face the fact, rod epoxy's are finnicky, and they shouldn't be.

Just my 2 cents, right or wrong :-)

DR

Randy send me that green thread, i still have to wrap those pac bays from charlotte, LOL John How you doing , warming up out there by now.

I'm gonna try another batch, spread out and heated, because I really like this stuff except for the curing time. It is clearer, runs thinner, and has less bubbles than anything else I've tried.

You can certainly mix two small drops and they'll set up perfectly - if you can measure that critically. That's why the manufacturers recommend 3ccs of each. It improves the margin of error for the builder. Not because the epoxy is "finicky." It's not. But epoxy users are notorious for not getting an exact 50/50 mix when mixing very small quantities. But if you do mix two exactly measured single drops - they'll most certainly cure perfectly.

I'm not sure what you mean by vary. Yes, each brand has its own cure time and working properties, but that's they way each formulator designs his own epoxy. They're not supposed to be the same. (If that's what you're referring to.)

Over the years I've had many builders come by my shop and ask me for help with their epoxy finishing. I really don't know how to help them other than just mixing up a batch and showing them how I mix and apply it. And when I do, most are amazed - because I don't do anything. I mix it, don't bother to pour it out onto anything, apply it with a brush (without brushing, however) and then just walk away from it. And, I get near perfect finish results every time, with every brand on the market. It takes about 30 seconds to coat each wrap. That's it. Nothing else is required. In over 25 years and dozens of gallons of epoxy, I've never had a "bad batch" or a batch that remained sticky or wouldn't cure. I suspect there are a ton more builders whose experience with rod finishing epoxies are exactly like my own. The stuff works well and is easy to use.

The one thing I have noticed with builders who come here and show me how they measure, mix and apply finish, is that nearly each one of them do things that are not recommended nor advised in the instructions. They add thinner, they torch the mix, they dab and brush, they don't level the rod, etc. In other words, they make a simple job far more complicated than it needs to be. When I ask them why they do certain things, they nearly always say that they heard you had to do so and so. Or they read somewhere that this is the way to do it. They' re simply adding steps that don't help and that aren't required. (Somebody ask Sammy Mickel how he reacted the first time he saw me apply finish.)

Unfortunately, applying finish is one of those things that needs to be seen rather than read about. Although, most who see it done are nearly always taken aback by how easy it is and how little is actually required to get a good job. When it comes to good epoxy results, less is usually more.

............

Rod building epoxy is just like all other two part epoxies. Yes 'we' can mess it up & yes you rarely hear about other epoxy applications mixing up a bad batch. Are rod building epoxies bad? Heck no! Is Aftcote bad? Double heck no! I love the stuff.

Mixing two drops & coming out with a good result? Like Tom said, sure you can.......if your measuring equipment is good enough. The smaller amount you mix the more precise you have to be. All epoxy is forgiving.......BUT.......only to a certain degree. Use the analogy of an aquarium to understand this. Fish live in water, yes. But can we say they should be able to live in an aquarium filled with water just as easily as the lake down the road? No we can't. Why is this? It is because an aquarium is a much smaller ecosystem than the larger lake. That is why aquarists have to take such precautions in setting up & maintaining their tiny tanks. The smaller the tank the more critical it is to keep everything in balance. The larger the tank the easier it is. Put the fish back in the lake and you never have to worry about it again.

The same goes for epoxy. The boatbuilders around my area (the finest boatbuilding community in the world mind you) use TONS of epoxy. By rodbuilding standards they mix huge amounts at a time. They don't seem to ever have any problems with the mix. Everything in these boats is either wood, screws, or epoxy. Epoxy use ranges from bonding agents & gap fillers, to fairing compond, to the primer & paint applied as a topcoat. It's ALL epoxy. They will mix gallons at a time for certain applications without a problem. They are like the lake in the above analogy.

Rodbuilders, in compairson, are like the goldfish bowl. Instead of mixing gallons of epoxy we are trying to mix 3cc's of the stuff and obtain the same results. Of course we can mix these small amounts and get good results.......BUT we have to be extra precise when doing so. The margine for error increases as the mix amount decreases. If we mixed a gallon of epoxy, we might have a margine of error of +/- one cup. Decrease that into a mix of 3cc's and figure what the margine of error would be. This is how precise our craft is.

Is this hard to do? NO! Should this scare anyone? HECK NO! I'll be the first to tell you I'm no rocket scientist. I'm not a chemist. Heck, I never even took the SATs in high school. Believe me when I say "if I can do it, anyone can do it". This is not hard. All you have to do is measure. We can't expect to just pour epoxy out into a mixing cup & HOPE it comes out right. BUT if you pull a tiny amount of epoxy out in a syringe & then mix it, all will be well.

Epoxy isn't a demon child. It really is user friendly. We, as users, just have to be willing to use it properly.



Jay



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2005 10:43AM by Jay Lancaster.

That's an excellent analogy, Jay. Very well put.

..............

Lets look it another way........a 50/50 mix is about as SIMPLE as it gets. Yet we buy syringes to make it perfect, build heated rod boxes, play with lights in them to get the right temps,.... many rods take days to dry despite the efforts.

For the record, I've NEVER altered any epoxy in any way. I'm sure others can say the same and have still had problems along the way. It's not all "perfect", if it were, there wouldn't be near ANY discussion on the subject of drying, yet we have pages after pages.

No demon's, no problems, I just think there should be rod epoxy's created that are more forgiving, meaning: the mix shouldn't have to be measured with syringes to get a perfect mix to avoid failure, we worry about bubbles, worry about getting all the guides before it starts to thicken, mix it up and lay it on something flat to help...and so on.....it just shouldn't be that finicky.

We should be able to mix it 50/50, slap it on the wraps, and have it dry overnight at the MOST and never worry once.

DR



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2005 07:00PM by Duane Richards (DR).

If you can get a 50/50 mix without syringes, then you don't need them. As far as drying boxes and all that sort of apparatus, I've never used any of that stuff - it's another luxury but not at all necessary in order to get great results from just about any epoxy.

"We should be able to mix it 50/50, slap it on the wraps, and have it dry overnight at the MOST and never worry once. " This is exactly how I do it. And if you do exactly that - you will most definitely get great results.

But you can't have a rod that's supported in an unlevel fashion, an inaccurate mix, take 2 hours to apply the stuff and then say the epoxy is "finicky." The miracle finish that will not be affected by such poor techique has not yet been invented.

..............

Tom, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't rod finishes actually casting resins and NOT epoxy(why do they always call them epoxies, if they are not)?? Duane is comparing them to 2 part epoxy adhesives and rod finishes aren't adhesives and actually bond very poorly

Mike

No, they're epoxies - epoxy casting resins. But they work very well for use on guide wraps. There are some differences in how the adhesives and casting resins are formulated, but they're very similar and share many of the same properties - they are all epoxies. I thought the analogy that Jay used was excellent. But in any case, they aren't finicky and if you measure them 50/50, mix them well, and just apply them and let the stuff alone to do what it knows how to do, you're going to get very good results.

After watching other builders - those who have told me they're having problems - apply epoxy here in my shop, I'm convinced that the #1 problem is that they try to do too much. Too many steps, too many things they've read or heard about over the years which just aren't necessary. (If you've found that tying a chicken bone round your neck and chanting prayers seems to help, I'm not telling you to stop. Keep doing what you're doing if you believe it gives you good results.) But in all the years I've been doing this and showing people how to apply epoxy, I generally get the same response from every one of them - "You mean, that's all you do?"

..........