I have been using Trondak's LS Supreme epoxy finish on my rods. I apply a medium amount to the wraps (over color preserver) with a disposable brush in a warm room. The finish looks great when applied and after setting for 20 minutes (rotating at 4 RPM), but when it's finally set, it's no longer even. It seems to contract by pulling away from some areas of the wrap. This is true even for the second coat. I just can't get that perfectly even glass-like finish on my wraps.

Any ideas why this is happeneing?

Jim:

At current count there are at least nine demons waiting to cause problems with your finish. They are: thread preparation; measuring; mixing; application; amount; level; temperature; silicone; and impatience. You can cast them out by a thorough knowledge of what they are and how to keep them away. There is an art and science to finishing your rod. Getting around the demons that cause problems allows your craftsmanship to shine. So lets go and exorcise the demons that plague rod finish.

1. Thread preparation: Check first for tight thread wraps, i.e., no gaps. Insure the thread fuzz is removed by singeing it with an alcohol lamp. If you choose to use color preserver on the threads, apply a thinned coat followed by a thicker coat, each 24 hours apart, and allow the final coat of CP to dry 24 hours prior to applying your finish.

2. Measuring: Read and follow the mixing instruction exactly! Usually the mix is 1-to-1. If so, measure it exactly and in quantities sufficient to prevent significant errors. Syringes designed to measure rod finishes, such as those from U-40 or Flex Coat, are preferred above all other methods. Use at least 3 cc each of resin and hardener for a total mix volume of 6 cc. Note: Do not use medical syringes, as they contain silicone and it will ruin the rod finish.

3. Mixing: Put the harder and resin into a shot glass or small plastic cup for mixing. Avoid mixing your finish in the bottom of a coke can or on a sheet of foil. Mixing is best done when the two parts are folded slowly together, one over the other, just as a cement mixer folds the mix together. A blade - spatula or a flat stir stick - folds the finish better than other shapes. Round objects seem to induce more bubbles during the mixing process. You need to scrape the sides and bottom and observe the clarity of the product. Remember, as the two parts mix, they go from clear to cloudy to streaky and back to clear. The mixing process should take 2 to 3 minutes. To prolong the pot life and avoid thermal mass heating of the finish, pour it into an aluminum foil “boat’ once the finish is mixed.

4. Application to the wraps: You can use a spatula or a brush to apply finish to the thread wraps. A spatula applies a greater amount of material and can cover larger areas quickly. If you use a spatula to apply finish, you may wish to rotate the rod at a higher rate, say between 40 and 120 rpm. Brushes work quite well for application of finish, but may add bubbles. Ensure that the brush is fully loaded with finish before using it. Brushes should be fine enough to allow the finish to be placed accurately and neatly. Some of the disposable brushes are very coarse and do not allow for a neat application. Quality finish can be easily ruined by a sloppy application over the thread. Applying finish should not take more than a couple of minutes per guide, if sufficient speed is available from the turning motor.

5. Amount Applied: The amount of finish applied over your threads may cause an uneven surface. From my experience, the first application should be light and just cover the thread. Once you have completed a light application of finish on each thread wrap, you can go back and add more if you wish. This is a good practice to follow if you are using a high build product. It is my preference to apply a very light coat of finish to all the thread wraps and let the finish cure. Within 24 hours I add a second light coating of finish over the first. Two light coats give me a better quality finish and minimize the amount used. You do not need more finish than leaves an even, smooth coat over the thread.

6. Level: Your rod must be level for many of the current finishes to self-level and spread evenly from end to end while rotating and drying. Check your set-up prior to applying the finish and shim as necessary to make it as close to level as possible. When the finish starves the end of the wrap, it is a possible symptom of the rod not being level.

7. Temperature: The temperature at which the finish cures determines how long it will take. Most directions are for room temperature, i.e. 72 degrees F. For every 15 degrees either above or below room temperature, the curing time is either halved or doubled, respectively. So, if you leave the finish to cure overnight in a cold room, it may not be cured by morning. Bringing the partially cured rod into a warm room will speed the cure. The use of a “warm box” can ensure the cure in colder climates.

8. Silicone: This is the nemesis of the rod builder. Silicone contamination on the rod or in the finish can cause the finish to fish-eye. With respect to rod building, silicone lubricants should be used and stored in the next county. If you have used them, you must wash thoroughly and insure your clothing is not contaminated prior to working on your rod. Some fly-lines and line cleaners have silicones added, so be aware of this potential source

9. Impatience: Touching the finish before it has fully cured has botched many an otherwise good job. First, never touch the finish on the rod to check if it is cured! If it has cured, you are fortunate. If it has not, you will leave finger marks in the finish that will not self-level and disappear. An easy solution for impatience is to save the aluminum foil boat holding the mixed finish. Touch the surface of the finish in the boat to test for cure. Alternately, place some finish on a piece of plastic or wood scrap and touch that rather than the finish on the rod.

Hope this helps. Key part for you may be leveling the rod.

Doug Weber
Weber Rod Works

Follow Doug's great guidance and you will reap rewards on your finish regardless of the brand. Just remember that the majority of it's users are having success with the product or it wouldn't remain on the market. That doesn't mean that all finishing products are exactly alike in application needs but if you are having difficulties they are usually self imposed.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

I'm not sure where the finish is pulling away - if it is pulling away from the edges of the wrap and getting too thick in the middle of the wrap, you have too much epoxy on the wrap. Stop rotating and use a brush etc. to remove excess epoxy that sags to the bottom. (I've switched to Tom K.'s method of turning by hand 180 degrees, and removing excess before turning the rod for the turns in the first 10 minutes or so.)

If the finish is pulling away from randomly spaced spots, you have "fisheyes" - grease, silicone or other dirt is on the threads and repelling the finish. I've read here that people save the wrap by cleaning the thread somehow; I've always had to cut the thread off and re-wrap when I get this problem. And - track down the source of the dirt!

Doug - Fine Post!

Add the following to your list.

1. Finishes are liquids when applied. Liquids do not establish uneven top surfaces on their own. They will level when sitting still. You do not have to apply while rotating.

2. Roger Seider with Flexcoat mentions that "strange things" happen when finish is applied "green". His explanation is that for the first five minutes, until chemical reaction is initiated, finish may pull and appear to move around on its own, due to small forces set up internally. His reccomendation is to apply fresh mixed finish to guides first and wait a short period before applying to long butt wrap sections. I had this problem with all finishes until I started to delay the application to the butt wrap area that many times had uneven thread surfaces due to crossings. The delay time really helps to level.

3. The top pan in the package of small aluminum foil pans that you buy in grocery stores has a label stuck to the top pan in the stack by a big wad of silicone gel! It is best to chunk this one in the garbage or go in the kitchen and make some crabmeat augratin with the top pan! Keep this pan away from finish.

4. The smallest elevation change, even the thickness of a water slide decal, may cause dimpling on the first coat of LS Supreme. The second coat will cover evenly.

Gon Fishn

The number 1 problem is you are putting to much finish on wraps. Try putting on thin coats and you will not get the football affect.

Thanks Dave

Jim, Which LS Supreme,highbuild or Duragloss?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/04/2005 02:10PM by Ed Grella.

A 50/50 mixture is critical and epoxy is relatively inexpensive. I would stick with the 3cc mix until your problem is resolved and stir the mix for three minutes and pour on aluminum foil to settle. I doubt if these instructions are as important as applying the proper amount in your case but they do need to be considered. I apply the epoxy liberally and rapidly. When applied I allow the epoxy to sag and then remove the sagging epoxy with a brush or spatula. I then rotate 180 degrees and repeat. After sufficient rotations the epoxy will not gather and sag readily as the excess has been removed. I then begin rotation with a drying motor or continue to rotate by hand if I have the opportunity. This system has eliminated the problems for me of which you speak.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

Let me first say that each finish brand has it's own learning curve.

After using quite a few different brands, I have to say that LS can have one of the harder learning curves. Once mastered, it's a great finish. There are other brands that are a bit easier to learn on - IMHO.

Putter
Williston, ND

Jim,

Be sure the rod is level with it's central axis and do what has been suggested above. Apply the epoxy fast to all wraps and come back to fine tune/ touch-up.

I like 18 RPM for drying but many speeds work.

Stan

Thanks to everybody for the wisdom and advice. I am still working on getting a perfectly smooth finish, and your replies have certainly helped. I'm getting back into rod building after a 35-year hiatus. The last rod that I made was a 3-piece Orvis salmon rod; it was for my brother as a wedding present. How different things are now! On thing that has changed is the great people in the rod building community. People such as yourselves show that the tradition of respect and generosity is still alive and well.

Jim

Oops! I meant to say "One thing that has NOT changed is the great people..." 8^)

Jim