It seems that on surf fishing sites builders usually recommend using 5 or 6 guides for surf rods set up for spinning even on 11' or 12' rods . They also usually push the butt guide up 40-50 inches from the reel. The rational is that the fewer number of guides, the greater the casting distance. Is there any credence to this? I'm setting up a 11'6" rod and although I have not test casted it yet, the static method looks best with 8 guides. Can the addition of 2 or 3 more guides, presumable set up properly, significantly decrease the casting distance? Thanks.

Russ,
Yes, that is correct. The fewer guides the less weight is added and the rod will as a result have a higher resonant frequency and therefore higher tip velocity and cast farther. Extra guides added toward the tip will have much more effect than guides added nearer the butt of the rod. The price you pay is poorer stress distribution or the rod is easier to break under a heavy load.

On a rod of that power, adding one or perhaps two more guides might actually make for a better fishing machine. Remember, a rod has to do more than cast, it has to set hook, fight a fish and be pleasant to use. Adding those two extra guides might cut a couple or three yards off your total distance, but might make for a much more fun rod to fish with.

I'd set it up both ways and cast it and see if the difference is enough to worry over.

.........

Russ, most of the surf fishing boards will give you the five guide scenerio (maybe six) with either high frame guides or a 50 to 70 mm stripping guide ......old school stuff in my opinion.

I recently converted to a more "concept " style with a little Fuji LC idea to boot. On a 10.5 ft Allstar, I put 8 guides starting with a ICMNSG 25 (40" from the reel seat) then 20,16,12 ,10's to the tip. I'm using a Spheros 5000 and 30# power pro braid, 2-3oz plugs...all I can say is that the line suprisingly zips through this set up. Having more guides will allow for guicker hook sets, having more guides should make the rod more powerful, and the guides I'm using weigh 75% less than a "traditional" surf spinning set up. All good things for a surfrod in my opnion.

You may want to try it out and test cast.....but I also realize doing something so extreme is like a fly fisherman changing from snake guides to single foot ceramics!!!

All I know is that I'll have one of the best rods on the beach! (and its purdy!!!)lol.

Russ, I agree with Michael, The thinking of fewer guides casts farther is old school. I've been surf fishing fow twenty-some years now and have had my share of rods. I just built a twelve foot casting rod with 8 guides plus tip top. It casts farther than anything I've ever thrown. I'm building the same blank for my brother in spinning trim, and plan on using seven guides plus tip. Once you cast the rod, you'll agree more guides isn't really bad.....remember guide technology has come a long way.

I just completed a Loomis 1448.

It has 7 guides..(BMNAG I think) 30-25-20-16-16-12-12-12 tip..

I aint never come close to casting 8oz as far as that rod will throw......The "extra" (By old school standards) on the tip really makes the rod act better.

I think many customs have less guides because more guides equal more cost, and less profit...

Plus, I did not have to cut anything to get an action I am very happy with, and the added weight is so negligible on a blank of this weight,, that it does not matter....

Good Luck with whatever your decision is !!

Russ -
I tend to use more guides than you would routinely see on surf rods, and smaller diameter rings. On spinning rods 10'6" through 12' I find that a size 40 set about 28" from the center of the reel seat works very well. If you look at the changes in reels over the past 10 years or so you'll see that the diameters of most of the reels you see on the beach are getting smaller - by as much as 1/3 to 1/2 the older reel configurations. Simply the machining in the newer reels / number and placement of bearings and their composition (Anti Rust Bearings) and "supper stopper" anti-reverse bearings make for a superior and smaller diameter spool. My thinking is that allowing that line to flap around between the time it comes flying off the spool and is gathered by the first guide is something that should be better controlled. I also change from the more "standard" V-ee frame guides to conventional "casting" guides with a configuration that works out to something like this for a 10'6" SU-1264 Rainshadow: 40 V frame 30 V frame 20 casting. 16 casting 16 casting , 12 casting (12 or 10) casting ,10 casting guide and a tiptop. The Rainshadow is a thin blank to begin with (with lots of backbone) and is just fun on the beach! I think the extra guides help "power the fish" through the breakers/rips and onto the wash by better distributing the power of the blank and not overloading the tip. I just finished a Rainshadow using that configuration using the American Tackle Titan (titanium frame) guides and it casts very smoothly = 2 oz of lead plus bait (so say 3 - 4 oz) out 110+ yards with very little effort - by hat I mean no exagerated off the ground or pendulum casts just a nice "snap" and it will handle 1oz plugs or jigs easily when fishing jetty edges or wading out knee deep.

FOr arguements sake, I'll chime in for those old schoolers who don't have computers.

I prefer using 3 guides, a 90mm Perfection, 75mm, and a 50mm. I use the equi-distant method where each one is teh same distance from each other, teh stripper is placed about 3/4 of the way up the rod.

lol - sorry, I'm having fun tonight.

Billy -
I did, upon strict direction, from a customer build two rods - one "my way" and one "his way" both on Breakaway "Hatteras Heavers" . "His way"
was almost exactly the way you described it (except I couldn't find a 90mm so substituted two 75's) - and a 'made up" size 30 casting guide bent over for a tip top. Because he was positive that this set up would give him exceptional distance. Two months after I built it the rod was back to be rewrapped.

Ken - that's standard practice in teh North East, especially up on he Cape. To each his own, people swear by it, who are we to argue - if they feel it works, hey - that's fine by me. PArt of the problem is they use an extra covert special technique with these guides, that most modern builders cannot figure out. THat's why they can cast further than the modern guides & placements.

Or the guys building the old school way haven't spent teh time to learn how to build with teh new guides/placements.

More guides equal more weight. More weight means a lower tip velocity and therefore shorter casts. Tom is probably right that on a typical surf rod a couple of extra light weight guides is not going to make a big difference but there will be a difference. The guide configuration and position, if it is casting distance that you want to optimize, should be set up so that there is the least amount of contact between the line and the guides. As far as the first guide is concerned, again if it is casting distance that you want to optimize, I feel that you should test cast and watch the line between the reel and the first guide and position the first guide to minimize the standing wave in the line. This standing wave in the line usually can not be completely eliminated without moving the first guide too far up the rod but it should be reduced as much as possible because this standing wave in the line results in a loss in casting distance.

Russ, the trade-off for less guides might end up with the rod not being capable of handling a really big fish. Most of the off-the-shelf rods that I own could benefit from another guide or two. I've caught everything from small blues to 8ft. Hammerhead sharks in the surf, on the same rod. You have to decide if the few extra yards gained casting by using less guides is worth the trade-off. In my case, most of the big fish seem to pick on the smallest rod I'm using at the time.

You make a good point Bruce. Fewer guides will result in longer casts, all other things being equal, but the fewer guides that you use the higher the stress will be. If you increase the distance between guides by say 10% the stress will roughly increase by 10%, increase the distance between guides by 20% and the stress will roughly increase by 20% etc.

Thanks to all for the input. You guys are on the money in terms of "fishibility". The blank is a RS SU1386F (2-5oz) and with the 8 guides taped on it feels (and looks) solid when stressed. With 8 guides the butt guide is on the butt section about 33 inches from the spool lip. With 5, even 6 guides, the seat is on the tip section and the blank looks and feels tortured. I will get to the field this week and test cast a few of these different set-ups. Thanks again. Russ.