What's the easiest method to tie off trim wraps after the guide wraps have already been completed?


I've read the trim wrap threads and I'm trying to understand the methods because they are much easier.


Do I understand method?

Do you tape down the trim wrap tie-off loop first and then wrap the guide thread over that loop; using another loop to tie off the guide wrap?

Bruce: I've posted a method before (not mine, just my explanation of it) for tying stand-alone trim wraps, which does involve putting down the tie-off loop first (only one loop is needed, assuming the guide wrap is already on). Very easy to do, and there are no tag ends to show under trhead that has no CP. Posting the method again, below:

Tape down the pull-through loop on the blank first, wrap the entire trim band over that, pull through (works fine for 3 to 6 turns, or more if you want, I don't), now you have tag ends on both sides of the trim. Pull them carefully until they come together, you can then apply tension, as much as you want, at 180 degrees from each other, 45 degrees relative to the blank at both sides (these angles are important), you now have a nice and snug trim band that you can move with your thumbnail into place, tugging at the tag ends whenever necessary to keep it together. Just before you snug it up against the main wrap, cut off the tag end flush at that side (I use an Exacto blade, change blades often). Then cut the other tag end. You can put a drop of CP at the cut-off point if you want, not really necessary.

Never fails for me now, almost never anyway. This was described on the board by someone else more than a year ago, don't know how to direct you to it. Hope this is clear. There are other subtle points in doing this that you will pick up as you go along.

Bruce,

Try a nail knot trim wrap. Basically all you do is tie a nail knot around the blank with some trim thread. I use a bodkin as my "nail". I can get 3 turn trim's fairly easily. Use a very small dab of CP to secure the resulting knot. Takes a couple of practice tries, but isn't too hard. Great technique, and works well if you want to do a trim after all the guides are wrapped.

There are instructions in one of the back issues of Rodmaker I think, though I can't remember which one.

Barret

Tom
You don't say when you use the pull through loop. Do you use it for both the guide wrap end and the trim wrap end at the saem time? Sorry, I'm a little confused.

Barrett
I'm not sure what the nail knot method is.


Thanks, Guys

Bruce: No. The guide wrap is tied first, in the usual way, just as if there would be no trim wrap. That's what I mean by a stand-alone trim wrap. The trim wrap is then done as described (both my method and the nail knot method will work), starting on bare blank near the guide wrap. After the pull-through, the trim wrap is then moved up snug against the guide wrap, it moves easily because you can tighen it up at any time by pulling on the opposite tag ends. You can actually do multiple trim bands this way, snugged against each other. Practice just tying the trim bands on a blank first, later practice moving them to snug up against the gude wraps. After a while, it gets so easy, all the tension is in the wraps, none in you.

Hi Tom! I was thinking! What if you tape a pull through loop down and wrap over it with the guide wraps. Then, pull the guide wraps through with a separate loop, leaving the original taped loop in place. Then, wrap your trim wraps over the that loop. Pull the loose end of the trim wrap underneath the trim and then under the guide wraps where the end will be buried. That way you'll only need to make one cut on the trim wraps. Do you think that will leave too much bulk underneath the threads? Does that make any sense?

Well, it sort of makes sense, but you'd lose a big advantage of the way I described, and of the nail knot way also. That's not having any trim thread below the main wrap, so it doesn't show through if you don't use CP (and I usually don't). But fool around with the method you're proposing if you like, especially if you use NCP thread or put CP on the main wrap. Metallic thread under regular nylon really stands out. As to bulk, yes, there would be just a bit more, not a big deal, there will always be some thread underneath any wrap, and we try to arrange to have those tag ends at the bottom of the rod.

Are there 2 cuts to be made with your method? That scares me because my first project gave me trouble with nub ends. I think I understand your method and I'll give it a try tonight. I have no idea what the nail knot method looks like. All I can think of is the nail knot that is used to tie fly line to the butt material. That leaves a pretty big knot.

I just want to thrown in one point about Tom's method. If you use CP at the cut-off point, apply it before you snug it to the main wrap, and wait a few minutes to partially dry befor you sug it. If its already next to the main wrap, some of the CP can wick into the main and leave you with a bright spot after you epoxy.

Daniel made a good point (and that's one reason why I don't bother with CP). And yes, there are two cuts, but really no nub ends that you can see. Both tag ends lie parallel to the blank, rather than sticking up. The cut on the main wrap side gets quickly snugged into that wrap, you can't see it at all. The one on the open end takes a little practice, but with a sharp Xacto blade, gently pressed parallel to the wrap, it doesn't show either. If it does, then just as with any other minor problem, you can trim it off after the first epoxy coat, then put on a second coat (though I really never have to).

Nail Knot - This will be the first time I have ever tried to write this in text form. Demos are a lot easier. Here Goes - If you can follow this let me know and I will save the file for others. If you do not understand the way something the way that it is written send me an email and I will correct.
This subject has come up on the board at least twenty times in the past year. Trim bands really are a skill you will want to develop.

1. To locate a nail knot anywhere on the rod blank lay a piece of metallic thread about 18 inches long drooped over the blank with the center in about the location you want the knot. I like to use JMetallic thread for these knots due to its constant stretch and tight covering of metallic material. HT Metallic will work but some of the colors lose their metallic covering fairly easily and when stretched do no retain enough tension to keep the nail knot in place.

2. Use anything that will fit in the fingers of your hand that has a hole in the end that you can easily stick a piece of thread through. A popslcle stick will do fine with about an 1/8 in hole drilled in one end.

3. If you are right-handed. Grasp the stick in the fingers of your left hand with the hole in the end sticking out to the right past your right thumb. Place your left hand holding the stick in you fingers over the blank on the top side with the thread still in place. You may want to loop both ends of the metallic thread over the blank to keep the ends out of the way.

4. Grasp the thread tag end to the left with your right hand and bring it up and over the stick, thread and blank and make a number of loops completely around the rod. You will loose one loop when it is pulled through so count just how many loops you want in the nail knot. Five loops around will result in a nail knot with four complete revolutions.

5. Take the end of the thread that you have made the loops with and stick it through the hole in the end of the popsicle stick. Pull it gently through the hole to take out the slack.

6. With your left hand pull the stick completely out of the loops to the left while holding the right tag end of the thread in place. You now have the nail knot tied.

7. Grasp both ends of the metallic thread and gently tighten. While you are pulling tight you can easily slide the not in place where you want it located. When you get it in place carefully tighten at ninety degrees to the blank to tighten the knot. Do not tighten by pulling the tag ends in line with the blank.

8. When tight and in place cut both tag ends about three inches long with a pair of scissors.
Leave the tag ends in place until you get ready to apply finish. For knots with two or three loops you may want to touch with a straight pin wet with CP.

9. Get a pair of cuticle nippers from a beauty supply to make the close cuts without pulling the ends loose. With these nippers you can easily cut both tag engs without the thing coming loose.
Remember that the loops are what is holding the knot in place - if you pull to tight before cutting the short end will snap back under the loops and pull the knot loose. Learn the tension needed by experience and practice.

Practice this a few of times and you will be tying trim bands in a few seconds.

Good Luck!

Gon Fishn

Bill: Am I correct in that, at the end of Step 6, you now have an identical result to the "tape the pull-through loop down first" method?

Lately, I have been doing my trim bands as part of the underwrap. I like doing this because I don't need to worry about a trim band with only one or two turns popping loose.

The nail knot has an advantage when you are using A nylon thread to do the guide wrap - not using any CP - and the customer complains about seeing tag ends through the translucent guide wrap thread.

Gon Fishn

You can use a piece of a pen filler for the "nail" and put your tag through the tube. Makes nail knot even easier.

Bill in WV

I always had problems with trim bands until Bill showed me (and everyone else) in Charlotte. His method makes it a breeze!!

Mike

Bill, I think I get the idea of the nail knot wrap. Does it leave a raised kind of knot such as when you nail knot a butt to a fly line?

When I use the nail knot method (for the advantages noted), I use my left hand index finger to form the tunnel for the tag ends to pass through.

I cut the same ~18" as Bill. I grasp one end using my left hand thumb to press it against my left hand index finger. I place my index finger up close to the bottom of the blank and pointing toward the guide wrap I intend for the trim. I wrap the thread around the blank and my index finger the number of turns +1 as Bill. On the last turn, I place the tag end between my thumb and index finger. The trim wrap is now all held by my left hand fingers. Then I use a "puller" made out of a straightened paper clip that has a small hook on the end that will grab the thread and pull the ends through the tunnel made by my index finger and the blank. Using my right hand, I use the puller to reach through the tunnel between my index finger and the blank, grasp the end of thread on the left (the one that I started with). I pull it through to the right and out the end of the tunnel. Then I turn my right hand so that I can reach through the left end of the tunnel and grasp the end of thread on the right (the one I ended with). I pull it out to the left. This creates a loose nail knot. I finish it just as Bill suggests.

One of the things I like about the nail knot method, is that you can place small trim bands outside the main trim band and not have to worry about the ends showing if you don't use CP. A look that I like is to add a metallic trim band and then a one turn less trim band outside of this one using the thread of the main wrap. For me, it gives the appearance of a very small metallic inlay. Which I like.

btw, when the knot is tightened the pull through ends compress and are not really noticeable. However, I always place my nail knots so that the knot itself is on the "bottom" of the rod (eg, fly, spinning, spiral on the guide foot side).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/31/2005 11:57AM by Steve Rushing.

Man, I wish I could watch you guys. It would make it so much easier.