Looking at some St Croix SCII spinning blanks lately and I found that I can buy them already built as cheap or cheaper then I can build them. What’s the deal? They must not want to sell many blanks.

I'm not sure what you are looking at but make sure you are comparing apples to apples. I use much better components when I build a rod than the production models. I also tune the guide position to give the best performance. If you are building rods to get them cheaper than you can buy on the more economical blanks, I think you may find this true.
St. Croix is buying everything in bulk. It makes a difference.

Kevin

Where are you getting those prices? According to the St. Croix catalogs, the suggested retail price for a finished rod is typically $25-35 more than the blank on which it's built. And there's also a suggested kit price in the catalog that runs about $5 less than the completed rod. Plus, I agree with Kevin, when I build on a St. Croix blank (I've done many), I'm not doing it for any potential cost benefit, it's to build exactly the rod I want.

In many instances, the factory rod will be cheaper than a custom rod although nowhere as efficient as a custom rod. The quality of the work and higher quality/choices of the components that you can put into a rod make it far superior to what you can buy off of the shelf. Most people buy/build custom rods because what they want is not available off the shelf.
Try to find a factory rod with the guides laid out for maximum performance with YOUR reel. I'm not trying to be condescending, but it fascinates me when someone posts asking for the factory guide layout for a particular rod when that is the single area where a builder can make the most improvement.
If a factory rod suits your needs (their are many good ones out there) then I would buy it, if not, build one that does

Mike

Looking at a major retailer, a 7’, 1 piece, light action SCII blank is $49.00. The kit with handle, guides, glue, and thread is $30.00 that’s a total of $80 for cheap components and no labor. A brand new factory SCII cost is $85…. As far as better components go that would put me in the negative. Standard components on a spinning rod have always been good enough for me.


I didn’t get into rod building thinking I could make a better rod then a company like ST Croix or Loomis who builds thousands of rods per day. I am not trying to fool anybody, my talent, time, and money, is limited. I got into to rod building because the Korean rods I was paying $50 to $80 for were not holding up as long as thought they should. RainShadow makes blanks (RX7) that in my humble opinion are twice the rod a SCII is for considerably less money and they carry a lifetime warranty. I am really not trying to slam St Croix but it would seem they are a little too proud of their blanks. And yes I do own some St Croix rods. I built three St Croix rods prior to buying my first Rainshadow, two SCIII’s, one SCII, and a factory Ultra Legend 9wt that broke 15” from the handle (not in the ferrule) while fighting a Striper the first trip out. St Croix did replace the rod after much discussion. I refused to pay anything to have two month old $350 defective rod replaced. They wanted me to pay the standard repair fee. They did do the right thing in the end and replaced it for free.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/16/2005 03:48PM by Mike Anderson.

There is no light power seven-foot St. Croix SCII. There is a medium-light power seven-footer, that blank retails for $49. The most comparable Rainshadow Rx7 would be the ISB841, that blank retails for a dollar more at $50. Both are excellent blanks for the (same amount of) money, I'd be happy with either. Both can be built any way you wish, such as with the economical aluminum oxide guides that are on the retail SCIIs.

Ooops I meant med-light.

Rainshadow RX7 Lifetimewarranty
IP842 7'0" 1 6-12 0.465 4.5 MOD/FAST MED-LT $38.07

St Croix SCII two year warranty
2S70MLF 7'0" 1 MED-LIGHT FAST 4-10 1/8-1/2 0.443 5.5 1.90 $49.00

Not to argue, but here are two rods that I have personally built and fished with that are similar in terms of action. Keep in mind that the RX7 is in a class above the SCII too.



Earlier you said “And there's also a suggested kit price in the catalog that runs about $5 less than the completed rod.”

If I buy the kit would you build it for me for $5?

Mike'
I think your missing the point. The guide price or quality wasn't necessarily what the above people were trying to get across to you. It was the "right ie: better" guide they were talking about. If you think the guides that come in the kit or are on the factory rod are the right guides for the job (we're talking configuration/ design for the purpose/design for your reel, not cost) than you are losing a lot of performance on every rod you build. Some of the niche marketers are getting closer, but the others have a lot to be desired. If I was to pick a guide set out of St Croix's bins, the guide set I selected wouldn't cost anymore probably because I'd make it up in the smaller, better spaced guides in my selection. And I'd have a lighter more sensitive rod for that zero or near zero outlay.
All the best to you and yours.

Again in my humble opinion the RS RX7 is very very comparable to the Loomis GL3. Bet you can’t buy a factory GL3 for anywhere near what you can build the RX7 for.

You can definitely build a better rod than you can buy. And the reason is exactly because they build thousands and thousands of rod each year - they can't give each one the time and attention to detail that you can.

Go over to www.tackleworks.org/truth.html and do a little reading. Custom rods aren't for everyone and it could be that you really would be better off just buying a commercially built rod.

By the way, a lifetime warranty does not necessarily mean that any rod that gets broken will be replaced free of charge. It means that rods that break due to actual defects (which is very rare) will be replaced or repaired at the option of the manufacturer.

.................

Mike: Just a note on those blanks. You quoted the specs wrong on the Rainshadow IP842, it has an 0.390 butt, not an 0.465. It is a considerably lighter (in weight) blank than the St. Croix 2S70MLF, and has a moderate-fast action. The model you quote is a 2-piece, the one-piece IP841 weighs a full 26% less than the 2S66MLF. Less graphite in the construction is why it costs less than the Rainshadow ISB841. They are all good blanks, but the ISB is a fairer comparison to the St. Croix SCII, and they are priced virtually the same. And no, I wouldn't build one for you for $5, too busy building for my kids and grandkids for nothing (though I wouldn't use a kit).

Tom D, I am looking at an IP842 in my rod rack and I assure you it is a one piece. That info was cut and pasted from a web site not sure what happenned on the butt info??. Look at the IP843 which I can also see from where I am sitting, for an even closer match. Not sure where your getting you info but I am looking at the rods I built and in the 2005 RS catalog. As far a heavier that’s why the RX7 is in my opinion the better rod. If you havent tried one of those blanks and this suites your style of fishing you really should give one a shot.

Tom K
I am not challenging Custom VS Factory

I totally understand that I can build a better rod than a factory rod now,,, but when I first pondered the idea of rod building, that was not all that I was thinking about. One big reason was because I could build a GL3 fly rod for $100 less then I could buy it. I was also in need of some good 7' 1 piece spinning rods. These are very hard to find in the action I like in a factory rod. Also, the finish on the Korean rods was peeling off after only one or two years.

So my point is this: I think it’s great that I can add gold or silver or titanium guides, and butt wraps, and Mammoth tusk reel seats, and lay the guides out to suit any way I want them to. And I understand that the price of such a rod is going to be higher then a factory rod and it will be a much better rod. Might not catch more fish, but it will be prettier, last a little longer and hopefully be a better performer.

However, I think if I wanted to copy a factory rod (that many well educated manufacturing engineers at St Croix spent hundreds of hours designing and contemplating where to place components to achieve the best overall performance given varying circumstances) and donate my own time and labor to build it, then I should be able to save a tad bit more then $5. Does nobody agree with this concept???
Obviously, Rainshadow and a select few others do.

Nope...I don't agree. Now if I was to buy a jillion parts and get the jillion part price I might be able to put one together for $5.00 less. Unfortunately, I can't afford to buy a jillion parts to make my one or two rods. Since there are no "factory " made Rainshadows, you really can't compare them to any store bought rod either. Don't misunderstand, I too often wonder why the kit price or parts price is as much ,or in some cases more, than the factory produced model. I am sure that when my rod is finished it will perform better than the mass produced one, and yes, it will also look better.

No, anybody who gets into rod building to save money is likely to be somewhat disappointed, at least if your time is worth anything.

And as much as I like the guys at St. Croix and other rod manufacturers, your statment, "that many well educated manufacturing engineers at St Croix spent hundreds of hours designing and contemplating where to place components to achieve the best overall performance given varying circumstances" isn't really true. They didn't spend hundreds of hours contemplating where to put the components. Their own Fuji "New Concept" system is not the New Concept System, it just employs New Concept Guides. Most likely, they put the guides the same place they did on that last 7 footer or that last 9 foot fly rod that they offered a year ago. Handles and guide spacings are mostly generic. Sure they work, but not nearly as well as what you can do on your own if you arm yourself with some good information.

As the page that I suggested reading mentions, commercially made rods do a great job for most people. It's not likely you'll ever compete with them on price, warranty or anything else, except for quality and performance, where you should beat them every time. But again, we may be talking about a level of performance and quality that you don't need.

If my goal was simply to save money, I'd buy the factory rod every time. My time is too valuable and I don't think I could save money on any rod out there. Well, maybe a few of the very high end models.

...........

Ok, then lets look at Loomis. For example a store bought GL3 7' MH spinning rod is $190. The blank price, $109. A factory GL3 9' 6wt 2 piece is $275. Kit price with TiCH guides, glue, thread, arbors, brushes and everything needed to build it $160.


I am still very new to all this and I try to make every dollar go as far as it can. It just seemed at first glance that St Croix has a higher markup on their blanks then a lot of other companies.

..Or a lower markup on their finished rods. That is likely the case.

................

Point well taken.
To the two Toms, it has been a pleasure talking with you. I am a little hard headed sometimes. You are right that SOME factory rods can be bought cheaper. Prime example I fish for very large Stripers using planer boards and 1 pound Skipjack. Cabelas sells two rods made just for this purpose the 9' Innerflow and the 9' Whuppin Stick. That’s right, the Whuppin Stick can whup just about any Striper in the water and do it quite nicely for $24. There is no way I could build a rod to compare with that for that kind of money so I don’t try. Pure brute strength is all you need when bait fishing for big Striper. I spend tons of $$ on fishing and I own some very fine equipment but when I can cut a corner and not risk losing fish then I do it. Now if I could just get a Whuppin Stick with spiral guides.... he he

Truthfully, I don't know how some of these companies sell rods for the low prices that they do. You wouldn't think you could buy the parts, assmble it and ship back from the orient, through a company, then a wholesaler and then a dealer still make a profit.

...........

I have been a dealer with St. Croix locally selling their factory rods.
I am also in the business of selling St. Croix blanks as a blank distributor in Canada.
I have built on St. Croix blanks as a custom rod builder.

St. Croix manufacturs several hundred rods/day and manufactures fewer blanks for the custom rod builder (several hundred per week). Their priority is to manufacture blanks for their factory rod production.
I see it as being analagous to a car manufacturer that has a finished stock vehicle selling for one price, and then may have parts available to the custom hot rod maker or body parts shop.
The part is more than the sum of it's whole in the scheme of it being sold to the consumer compared to how it's used in the totality of the manufactureing process for a mass production in the name of efficiency. The engineers are wonderful in enumerating the quality features contained within the blank production and expertise for that manufacture. The production workers don't design rods, and do the work of winding, glueing handles, etc. ..and very profiecient at it. The do this in step fashion, doing one part of the rod at a time and the custom rod builder takes in the details for the entire rod process. In other words, a winder at the factory ins't concerned about applying finish or what constituents are used for each process. They just follow the outline of instructions to make the rods conform to uniformity for each model.
It would be foolish for a custom rod builder to compete with that efficiency by trying to make a rod exactly as the factory version. Thus, the extra performance and custom features is what is being done on rods using those well made blanks as the template for other components and techniques available to the custom rod builder. Such things as spine application, stress distribution relating to guide placement, use of appearance in thread choice, use of color preserver, finish application, choice of better adhesives for handle assembly, and other ideas that come across that we share across the spectrum of rod builders that make a custom rod Better than a factory rod. Price is reflected in craftsmanship as well as individuality for specific usage or match to the reel, line, and so forth.

I've never attempted to duplicate a factory rod as a custom rod builder, nor would I expect that a good factory rod appear or feel the same as a custom rod. Both are for anyone, and custom is not for everyone. Even if you have the same pile of components used for factory rod vs. a custom rod, there are differing features. In fact some custom rods may be inferior to factory versions even if using the same blank as the factory. That's based on skill and expertise level of the custom builder.