First off - I have read the thread started by Jim Rippe and do not want to prolong such a lengthy (but entertaining) discussion.

Just want some simple feedback.

I am building a 10.5 foot spiral wrapped salmon casting rod. I have a total of 12 guides placed after the stress distribution test. This includes a total of 8 guides on the tip section and four on the butt section. Does 12 guides on a 10.5 footer sound about right?

The 4 butt guides consist of the transition guides placed in more of an O'Quinn method - as straight a line as possible. The line touches either the bottom or top of the guides in both the resting and loaded position. Actually, the third transition guide has the line running through the center of the guide in the loaded position (not touching the guide at all). The guides are set at no particular degree offset or guide spacing for the spiral - they are just set to match the line path to the first 180 guide. This ends up being approximately 24 inches to accomplish the transition - this is measured between the first butt guide (on top - 20 inches from reel face) to the first 180 degree guide.
My concern is that these transition guides may be too far apart as it seems most people place them closer together to get the line to the bottom as quickly as possible. Does my set-up sound about right?

I will wrap the tip section guides and test cast before I commit to the transition guide placement but would like some feedback prior to commencing the wrapping.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

Richard

P.S. I am still waiting for back issue Vol6, #5 to arrive so I have no visual frame of reference for this.

The four on the butt sounds excessive to me. I have an Allstar 1265, very moderate action, with only one guide on the butt section. I really can't imagine having more. I believe I ended up with 10 guides total.

Clyde

At what distance from the reel is that one guide on the butt?

It seems like there would be a lot of distance between the first and second guides if there was only one on the butt ...just can't picture it. Perhaps my guides on the butt end are too close together?

Richard

[www.fishingphotos.net]

12 guides sounds good. I would just watch the flow of the line AFTER the transition and that it matches the curve of the rod under a load.
I just wrapped a Seeker Composite Ulua93H-10 with 13 guides!

I did an 11' loomis surf rod that I used 11 guides on... so I think you are in the ballpark. I did a ton of test casting and static testing with all kinds of configurations and this was the best I could get.

Here's a photo of how my guides wound up looking. I can give you my spacing if you want it.... let me know.

[www.fishingphotos.net]

I had two guides in the butt section with one right on the ferrule. It took 4 guides to make the transition.

One of the most important aspects of setting up a rod like this is to make sure that first 180 guide is placed at or before the lock-up point. If the 180 guides start too far up the blank, it is difficult to get the line to lay on the transition guides properly when the rod is flexed. The way I look at it, you have the entire distance from the reelseat to the lock-up point to make the transition... use as much or as little of it as you need.

Getting the correct guide size and placement at the ferrule was critical as well (and somewhat challenging).

I offset my first guide about 20 degrees or so, mainly to make it easy with a non-levelwind Penn 525 Mag. I do this on all of my spiral rods to start the transition as soon as possible after the reel... why extend the transition zone up the blank any farther than you have to?

Erik

Just curious what you guys have for a distance between real seat and butt guide.

My set-up looks similar to Erik's but my transition occurs lower down on the blank. My blank must flex more toward the butt as the lock-up point is just into the butt section. (I am defining the lock-up point as that which flexes more than one-half inch off the axis of the blank when the tip is flexed to 90 degrees).

The line appears to follow the flex of the blank closely after the transition point so I think I am OK there.

The blank I am building on is a rainshadow ISA1266.

I will test cast this configuration and then set up to try something a little different and compare the two.

Thanks for all the info;
Richard

Let me share my experience when wrapping long, slow, parabolic action rods.

When they say to make the transition before the flex point, it's for a reason. Transitioning after the flex creates strange situations, like breaking a rod.

When you spiral wrap one of these rods where the flex point is close to hour hand, get the line to the bottom as soon as possible, with one or two guides, within inches of the reel face. The original Roberts wrap comes to mind. Joy Dunlap went to the bottom in a 'box', making the complete spiral in about 6 inches. It looks clunky, but will cast surprisingly well. I often wondered why Dale Clemens, in his book, used a single transition guide at 90 degrees(sound familiar?) May have been for this reason.

When I was in contact with Don Morton before he got sick, he gave me a method to try which became his progressive angle guide placement method to play with.

With that method, it is very possible to quickly get to a high guide count. Eleven guides before the flex(120 degree) point is very possible and probable. Add the transition guides and you can see what I mean.

Sorry about the lengthy post, but I get carried away talking about spiral wraps. C2

Thanks for the info Charlie.

What are you defining as the flex point (120 degree?)

Is that the first point where the blank makes a 120 degree departure from the axis (180 degrees) of the blank?

Quite honestly I can make a rod bend differently depending on what direction the force is applied to at the tip end. If the force is applied to the tip directly 90 degrees from the rod axis then the rod will flex less into the butt area than when applying a force at an angle less than 90 degrees away from the tip end (such as would be the case fighting a fish). This makes it confusing to determine what people are calling the "flex point". Is there a standard definition or method of determining the flex point?

Thanks again;
Richard

The 120 degree point is also the flex point. You measure on the arc made by the rod from the tip(zero) when flexed.

When using the equal angle system, you divide 120 degrees by the number of guides and place them accordingly.

When using the progressive angle system, you increase the angle by increments to equal 120 degrees to place the guides.

A detailed explanation of both systems can be found by searching using the author search with "Don Morton". He writes about a lot of things including the spiral wrap..

I don't use either system any more. I use the static distribution method to determine the number and size of guides. I mention these systems only to answer your question regarding the 120 degree mark. C2

Richard... on my 11-footer, the distance from center of reel seat to first guide was approximately 25 inches and it was a size 20 ring to properly accomodate the side to side sweep of the line for the particular reel that was used (Penn 525 Mag).

As far as locating the lock up point... I would attempt to stress the rod in the manner that you feel a fish would most likely stress it. For a surf rod, that is likely to be a shallow angle as opposed to the greater angle of the line with , say , a deep water jigging or trolling rod.

The method I've seen demonstrated in previous issues of Rodmaker is to run your line to visualize how the line hits the guides as the rod is flexed, but tie a separate line to the tip of the rod and use that to stress the rod. I'm not sure why this method is preferred, but it works pretty well.

I usually just wind up eyeballing things multiple times under various conditions until I'm satisfied that I've reached the best possible placement.

Erik

Thanks for all the info guys.

I think I have a good understanding now of the various methods of spiral wrapping and stress distribution for guide placement. I feel comfortable with the my current line distribution under load and am ready to go and do some test casting this weekend to try a few things out.

Thanks again for all the help.
Richard.

To answer the question regarding using a separate line from the rod tip instead of coming from the reel:

If you load a rod coming from the reel, you don't get a real view of how the blank itself wants to flex. The line pulling between the guides can force the blank into a position that it wouldn't otherwise assume. Load from the tip and allow the blank to flex as it was designed.

While we're at it, a static displacement has to be performed in the different positions as indicated in the library procedure to give an optimum guide placement. Running it in one position just gives you something close. JMHO. C2

Thanks for the explanation Charles... but when doing stress distrubition tests for guide placement, wouldn't it make more sense to place stress on the blank in the same manner that it will be stressed while fishing... i.e. tensioning the line out of the reel rather than pulling on the end of the rod with a separate line?

It seems to me that if the rod wants to flex one way when you pull on the tip and differently when you pull line through the guides from the reel, that the latter would be a more representative means of determining appropriate stress distribution by guide placement since that's closer to how it will actually be flexed during fishing.

There's probably a good and obvious explanation that I'm missing... but I just have to ask why...

Erik