I have recieved a comment from an "old-timer" friend that he had tried single foot guides on a fly rod and has since changed back to double foot snake guides since the line kept getting tangled in the single foot guides.

Any feedback on this comment? I have never used single foots before and am trying to make an informed decision.

Thanks;
Richard

Hi Richard,

I just got my first rod with single foot guides for christmas. At first I thought they looked kind of goofy on a fly rod, but I understood the weight and action advantages of them. But after a while I started to like the looks of them so I built my first rod with single foot guides. I just got to fish it for the first time on Saturday. I went to 11 mile canyon here in Colorado and the wind was blowing me every which way, but I never had any problems with the line fouling around the guides. And I figure if they didn't get fouled in that kind of wind they likely wouldn't at all. But then again, I've only been fishing a handful of times since Christmas, but I've had zero problems.


Mark

I can't imagine how something as big as a fly line can get tangled on a small low profile guide like that. The line goes through the guides, not around them. I think your friend is giving you a load of...

I switched to single foot ceramics 5 or 6 years ago and have never looked back. They make such a huge improvement that I wouldn't ever consider using snakes again.

There is always the old argument about snakes being traditional but I don't buy it. The traditional automobile tire is a hard and stiff bias ply but I'm not giving up my smooth riding radials for the sake of automotive tradition. Same with my new found fly rod performance.

Since I'm over 60, and started fly fishing when I was about 15, I think I qualify as an "old-timer." I really don't understand how the line can get tangled using single foot guides. I use both single foot wire and single foot ceramics and have never had any trouble with the line getting tangled. I've seen lots of comments here about single foot guides and nobody has ever mentioned this happening to them.

perhaps he used a single foot for the stripper. that would be the only guide i think that would tangle. use a double foot for the stripper and singles after that. use ceramics. i know of another well known angler that does not like single foot WIRE guides because he says they tangle, but i have never had a problem with wire or ceramics.

My dad taught me to fly fish in 1950 so I would suspect that I'm qualified to be called an "old timer fly fisherman".

You can tell that other old timer that you got a message from another old timer who said that he would not build a fly rod for himself using anything else but single foot ceramics.

What you have here is most often referred to as a curmudgeon who doesn't like anything anybody else does. Comes with the age. I once had one fellow, a university purist type, tell me that he would not use a fly rod with ceramic guides again as the line going out caused a harmonics sound that he could hear. I suspect he was getting pressure from his intellectual purist friends to dump the ceramics for the traditional pure snake guides.

Take what you hear sometimes from the old curmudgeons with a grain of salt (and a glass of adult beverage to wash it down).

And when the old curmudgeons just happen to be very well respected and well-compensated (by rod companies) anglers/authors/instructors/experts, take into account that those guys know pretty darn well who butters their bread.

I like the look of snakes and don't remember ever having any casting problems with them. I think I'll stay off the SF bandwagon.

Shanon

Does any one have any objective data about the weight dfifference in wrapping a rod with single foots vs. snakes? I've seen a whole lot of claims that SFs will be lighter but no data.

Well figure you have half the thread with single foot guides and half the epoxy. Less weight. Common sence. Also less guide to stop the blank from flexing so you get a better performing rod

Rich -

I've weighed guides in the past, but I thought I'd do it again.

I weighed 5 at a time - The ID of #8 ceramic is about the same as the #4 snake.
Single Foot #8 Zircs Forecast LTCFCG .6gr
Light Wire REC Recoil Single Foot #4 .1gr
Heavy Wire REC Recoil Single foot #4 .2gr
Heavy Wire REC Recoil Dbl Foot #4 .2gr
General Single foot Snake #4 .3gr

Thats a 600% to 300% weigh savings for the Recoils. .6 a gram doesn't sounds like a lot but when you get 9 foot out that translates into much bigger difference.

Try this find a small piece of split shot about 1/2 a gram and tape it to the tip top, You'll feel a difference.

Christian

I have also been weighing guides as well as rods and I don't disagree your split shot example on a bare rod but once the rod is loaded with line I can no longer tell the difference. When I weigh guides I usually find that we are comparing weight in tenths of grains over the entire rod and that makes it a bit difficult for me to sense the difference on a bare rod and again impossible on a fly rod loaded with line. I agree that in most cases lighter is better but I 'm convinced that we often spend to much time worrying about minor differences without the means to objectively test them.

Stan Grace
Helena, MT
"Our best is none too good"

Thanks for the responses.


Christian:
Would it be safe to assume that a single foot ceramic guide with one wrap would be approximately the same weight as a double foot snake with two wraps. And of course the single foot wire guides would be the lightest alternative of all?

Richard

Richard -

No, actually a wrap with epoxy is roughly .2gr.

So a single foot ceramic - .6 + .2 = .8
Dbl foot Recoil wire guide = .2 + .2 + .2 = .6

So it's still less weight, but this does depend on using Recoil guides. Standard H&H/Pac Bay/Snake Brand/Forecast dbl foot wire guide will all weigh more than Recoils.


Stan -

If we know lighter is better - and the effort/cost to archive is minimal, shouldn't we do it anyway. I agree that we may not get a lot out of using lighter guides, but when you combine that with better guide placement, a better blank, matching the right blank to the client, ... - IMO all those little tweaks add up to a large benefit and a happier angler.

Christian

Adding a different twist to the discussion on single foot versus snake. My experience is that people that like the single foot guides, swear by them. I am willing to try them on a 7 weight but I don't like my choices for saltwater. I live in Florida and have seen what happens to pretty guides. I need titanium or similar. I am new to this public discussion, and not sure I want to throw brand names out there. Here is what I have heard from rod builders that I know.

I have heard that "Brand X" makes nice titanium SF guides but they appear to be hand made by virtue of each one not being uniform with the others. They are also "high profile" as they sit high and out from the blank. I have heard that "Brand Y" SF guides lay close to the blank, BUT are difficult to work with when building the rod and sometimes break when you grind down the feet to lay them on the blank. I have heard that Brand Z makes titanium plated guides and there have been no issues with their use in salt.

Anybody have experience with single foot guides in a saltwater envrionment?

TIA