I have been doing alot of practice wrapping in preparation of building my first fly rod. I do not like the results I am getting using nylon thread with CP then my epoxy, sometimes blotchy and inconsistant color. Is NCP thread going to get rid of these problems and then skip the CP process? Any wrapping or finishing differences using NCP vs nylon? I'm sure of the color look and style of trim wraps that I want to achieve but should I try NCP thread to really get this look. Thanks for any advice.
Gary

If you are getting blotches, your thread is not packed tight enough, You need to really pack your wraps, then pack again. Don't skimp on the CP, use flood coat. NCP thread is, IMO, very dull/lackluster and looks more like a coat of flat paint.

Mike

Gary;

I always use regular Nylon. Mike is right -- NCP is dull and pack your threads tight. I use Flexcoat CP and have had no problems. Its an acrylic (like floor wax). I apply in many coats and work in with a high quality brush to ensure the threads are saturated. If after applying I find it uneven I will use a little 91% isopropyl alcohol on a high quality brush to soften the arylic and smooth the finish out. I also use the alcohol to clean the threads etc before applying the next coat of any finish to make sure all the grease and grime are off the threads. Let the CP reset if you use the alcohol on it. I also find that sometimes I get better results if I urethane over the CP before I apply the epoxy. Some might say use NCP -- the epoxy will give you a better bond. Personally I don't find this to be the case. The viscosity of the epoxy really makes it difficult for it to seep through the threads and bond to the blank thus no clear advantage.

Mark

You'll notice the diff using cp has on strength when you cut off old guides, triple wrapped guides with no cp and epoxy on all three coats are much harder to cut off than those done with cp. The exoxy soaked wraps turn into a solid rock if the eoxy is applied correctly-

What they said. I've found __especially__ with the lighter shades of NCP on a dark blank, and the reverse on a light blank, unless they are packed like sardines in a can, the slightest gap in the wrap waves an ugly flag at you....And I'm talking a gap of less than 1/2 thread width. Being a textile, it does not absorb resin or CP in the same manner as regular nylon thread.
Even when burnished to close any gaps, __any deviaton in thread tension__ also stands out like the proverbial sore thumb as well. Nylon thread is a lot more forgiving for both these scenarios.
I now use the NCP as trim threads, rarely venturing into main wrap territory with them.
As far as blotchy goes, you may want to try a flood coat of water based CP, as opposed to aromatic solvent types...let dry, and one more flood coat, using the corner of a paper towel to carry away any excess that won't get absorbed, after a 5-10 miinute period.
If you have oily hands and fingers while first wrapping, this is a cause of blotching too.
I used to go over every wrap with a tame solvent, like rubbng alcohol, to leach out any skin-transmitted oils....Now, I just wash my patties at the start, and at intervals during the wrap.

What they said. I've found __especially__ with the lighter shades of NCP on a dark blank, and the reverse on a light blank, unless they are packed like sardines in a can, the slightest gap in the wrap waves an ugly flag at you....And I'm talking a gap of less than 1/2 thread width. Being a textile, it does not absorb resin or CP in the same manner as regular nylon thread.
Even when burnished to close any gaps, __any deviaton in thread tension__ also stands out like the proverbial sore thumb as well. Nylon thread is a lot more forgiving for both these scenarios.
I now use the NCP as trim threads, rarely venturing into main wrap territory with them.
As far as blotchy goes, you may want to try a flood coat of water based CP, as opposed to aromatic solvent types...let dry, and one more flood coat, using the corner of a paper towel to carry away any excess that won't get absorbed, after a 5-10 miinute period.
If you have oily hands and fingers while first wrapping, this is a cause of blotching too.
I used to go over every wrap with a tame solvent, like rubbng alcohol, to leach out any skin-transmitted oils....Now, I just wash my patties at the start, and at intervals during the wrap.

The problems with color preserver are well documented. The problem you are experiencing is not new, many others, including me, have had similar experiences. I stopped using the stuff years ago, it has no place in the rods I build anymore because of the many problems associated with it....

Lou

I'd like to know exactly where these so called problems are documented. I've used color preserver for over 15 years on everything from freshwater bass rods to unlimited class trolling rods and not once have I have any problem with color preserver or my wraps. I refuse to believe that I'm just lucky or some type of rod building genius. I think my experience is about the same as most rod builders when it comes to color preserver. If you can't use the product correctly, don't blame the product. As someone said a while back, if color preserver was somehow bad, the companies couldn't continue to sell it.

Any beginner needs to read the article that Ralph O'Quinn did on color preserver. Like any product, there are plenty of ways to screw it up if you don't know what you're doing. But that doesn't mean the product is bad.

I plan to put that article in the library here in the next two weeks, along with two new ones on other topics.

...........

I don't use CP any more only because I like the look with out it. Even on butt wraps

I wasn't going to chime in, but...

My experience with CP is as follows and I only state this as a POSSIBLE warning:

CP is not impervious to moisture; epoxy finish is.

Any guide wrap can be taken and tweaked and the finish can crack or lose it's seal with the blank somewhere. Losing the epoxy's seal happens accidently and also due to such things as poor guide prep and finishing techniques.

When CP is used and this seal is broken AND the rod is used in very inclement or humid conditions, the guide wraps can get moisture throughout large areas because CP is not impervious to moisture. Any builder's rods can run into this situation if CP is used. It took several years before I ran into this problem.

I don't have the problem any more nor do I worry about this problem any more because I don't use CP any more.

Again, this possibility exists, and using fresh epoxy finish on wraps, filling tunnels completely and ensuring I do all that I can to get the finish to encapsulate each thread on each wrap is my only assurance that this doesn't happen to my rods.

I look forward to the day that someone makes a product that allows me to color preserve AND finish threads in one step.

Just my two cents on this subject...

Putter



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2005 02:48AM by Randy Parpart (Putter).

Putter, you have a point, as I'm sure everyone does when it comes to this subject. I'm not disputing your point, just saying that I and countless others always use CP (even on metallics) and have NEVER encountered any of those problems. "To each their own"

Mike