Was real excited about setting up my first rods using this system. Have 2 spinning rods I was going to set up tonight. Already have the reel seats glued on, have read many of the posts here about using the system. Even had a copy of the "New Concept Guide Concept Primer" (Tom Kirkman) from the library here on hand. Thought it was going to be a piece of cake.....about pulled what little hair I have left out and decided to quit and seek out some help.

Based on other posts and advice from an experience builder, I did the following so far:

- Installed reel seats with symmetrical strips of mesh sheet rock tape arbors....reel seat should be parallel to rod.

- Bought Fuji BYAG guides for both rods (2 each of # 30, 25, 20, 16, 12, and 10), as well as a bunch of BLAG #8 (fly guides for the guides from the "pivot point" out..

One rod is an 8' Rainshadow 967 that I am setting up as a light surf rod for plugging and light bait fishing. I am setting it up with a cork tape handle. The handle is about 20 inches long (fit for me). Reel is a 4000 Shimano Stradic.

The other rod is a light 7' St. Croix that I am setting up as light speckled trout/pompano surf rod, to double as a panfish rod. It has a 14" regular cork handle and foregrip (fit for me). Reel is a 1000 Shimano Stradic.

I put the reels on with spools off. Lined up the centline of spindles along counter edge and then ran into problems. Not sure if all of these are problem, or maybe I just expected something different:

-Using the Kirman article, found the location of the pivot guide for each rod. Seemed closer to the reel than I thought it was gonna be. About 20" from the tip for the 7' St. Croix and nearly 33" for the 8' Rainshadow. Based on the article, with guides every 4 to 5 inches (form Kirkman article), seemed like a lot of guides. Seems like most of the posts about this part of the process always talk along the lines of running these same sized guides from the pivot point all the way out to the tip, but haven't seen mention of how many guides this typically takes.

-Stripper guides for both rods seem to be falling our too close to the reel spool top/face. Seems this is dictated solely by the angle the spool spindle makes with/toward the rod. With these reels seems the angle is sharp, causing the stripper guide to want to be closer to the reel than I expected. Seemed like the #30 or #25 were gonna be the best choice for stripper guide, base on what I had read/been told. Samller than these for a stripper didn't seem right. But if I use a #30 on either rod, the stripper is way less than the 17" "minimum" (from the top of the spool) mentioned in the article. #25 is a little better, but still seems awful close (about 17.5" on the 7' St. Croix and 18" inches on the 8' Rainshadow). Is 25 too small for an 8' surf rod stripper?

-Both rods seem to want two more progressively smaller guides between the stripper and the pivot guide. Selected these from the "stock pile" as the method suggests. I was freaked out when I did the inital guide locations/setups because I ended up with what seemed to be way too many guides on both rods:

8' Rainshadow: #25, #16, #12, and 7 #8 flys (10 total not including tip top)

7' St. Croix: #25, #16, #10, and 4 #8 flys (8 total not including tip top)


I haven't ever built rods of this size, only large conventional surf rods (heavers), which don't have near this number of guides, so this many guides just doesn't seem right. Again, maybe my lack of experience with the system is the problem or maybe I had misconceptions about what to expect.

Please help!




Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/05/2005 08:04AM by scott hunt.

No, these are not too many guides. From the intersection point on out, you'd probably want a guide every 5 or 6 inches on rods of the size and power your mention. You can space these slightly progressively on longer rods. You might try 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - etc, or just locate them by eye. These should all be the same size.

Generally I'd locate the butt guide about 19 to 22 inches from the reel face on rods of this size with the reels you mention. One advantage to using a higher frame, is that you can get away with a smaller ring. Monofiliment does not need a large ring to pass through. Unless you're using very heavy mono, a #25 is likely all you'd need. What size mono do you plan to run on the 4000?

Free yourself from sticking to any one guide type. If the 4000 reel needs a larger ring, switch to a 30 in the BSVLG or SVSG type. That one sits lower than the concept models and will push it out a bit from the reel.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Take the rods out and cast them and see for yourself if your set-up works.

....................

Tom,


Thanks for the reply. I am gonna be using braid on both reels. Don't remember the lb. test, but 8lb mono diameter equivalent braid on the 4000 and 2 or 4 lb mono diameter equivalent braid on the 1000.

When you talk about the 4000 possibly needing a larger ring, are you strictly talking about making sure the ring size is at least 1/2 of the spool diameter (like describe in the article)?

Sounds like my mistake might be sticking ot a specific guide model. I looked at it again this AM after I calmed down a little and am wonering if part of the issue with the stripper being so close to the reel is the reel itself. The 4000 particularly has a reel sharp angle toward the rod.

Because of my lack of experience I am not familiar with the BSVLG or SVSG guides. Are they different enough that they will move the stripper to the 19 to 22 inches?

What are you looking for when you test cast the setup. Never done before with this type of rod/setup.

Again thanks so much for the help.


Scott Hunt

With that size/diameter line, a #25 is more than sufficient. The important thing is to have a straight line path between the butt and intersect guides. when you sight down through them, each ring should perfectly frame the next successive ring.

If you take the rig out and cast it, then play around with some different sizes, etc., you can then go cast some more. After a few minutes you'll have a pretty good idea which set-up works best.


.........

The next time you build a rod with the new concept sytem (actually, for any system), pay especial attention to the arbors for the reel seat. With a quality spining reel, the shaft of a mounted spinning reel will angle slightly towards the blank, resulting in the intersection point where the butt guide should be located. To achieve an appropriate intersection point, the reel seat must be mounted parallel to the blank; this will be the result only if the arbors are reamed or bored concentrically. (The new Flex Coat arbor system is reputed to achieve this automatically.) Next time, before final gluing of the arbor(s) and the reel seat, mount the reel and see where the intersection point is, then you can tweak things a bit if necessary to get the desired result.

Scott, I just checked my 967. From reel seat to size 30 BYAG stripper guide is 24". Next guide is a size 20 BYAG, 8" in front of the stripper, then a size 12 BYAG that is 7.5" in front of the 20, then a size 8 BYAG 7" in front of the size 12. Then I have size 8 fly guides run out to the tip in decreasing intervals for a total of 10 guides including the top. The reel used was also a 4000 stradic.

Haven't checked my cell phone today, do I have a message? ;)

Clyde,
You know you do!!! I almost called you at 1100 last night, but decided not to! I just left you a message not 10 minutes ago before I got back on here! I am good for a good laugh if nothing else. Give me a call if you get a chance<

Thanks to everybody...this board continues to be invaluable to me.

Scott Hunt

"Feeling better" about the total number guides, but still having a problem I think. 8' Rainshadow is the one giving me a fit.

I don't think the reel seat is the issue. Seems like it would be mounted parallel using the sheet rock mesh tape arbors because I counted the number of wraps for each tape strip and used less wraps as I progressed toward the tip. Anyway, checked out by taping the reel directly to the blank on either side of the reel seat and I am still getting the sharp angle with the spindle.

Made some measurement and my pivot guide for the spool is only about 33 inches. This seems to be wrong because with the stripper out from the reel as far as ya'll are recommending I would end up with the stripper seemingly too close to the pivot guide. I was wondering if I have made my butt too long (20" to the back of the reel seat). Doesn't seem to look to long for the rod and is fit to how I like to fish/cast. BUT it seems that length of the handle doesn't effect the spacing of the guides from the stripper to the pivot guide because the angle of the spindle "sets" those guides. Seems like if the handle was shorter, would still have the same number/spacing of "butt" guides with just more of the :"same sized guides" from the intersect out.

Am I missing something. Really wanting to understand the system. Is my reel/rod combo/setup just an anomoly (Sp) that is causing my "problems" or am I just missing the obvious?

Your reasoning about the angle of the spindle setting the length and spacing of the (my terminology) drop-down guides is correct, so you are not missing anything there. It's possible that your reel is just giving you what it's giving you. Do you have other reels of similar size that you can check things with?

A confession (that I've made before) is that the intersect point that I get on my rods is often not what I'd want it to be, though I usually have the opposite problem, the intersect point is too far out, on occasion out past the tip. ( I use Shimano Stradics, Saharas, and Sedonas, and I hand-ream graphite arbors.)

What I do in those cases is use a "semi-concept layout", put the drop down guides where I wish they were, making sure I got that straight line, then fly guides (6s) out to the tip. A main goal is to get to the 6s as soon as seems reasonable, to minimize rod weight. Then I test cast. Up to now, I been satisfied, the rods look good, cast good and fish good. Bear in mind that Fuji's data showed only a 3% improvement in casting distance for the new concept layout versus the older cone-of-flight.

Also, I agree with Tom K, and fiddle with both high-frame (ideal) and normal frame guides until I get a layout that looks (and tests) best.

In measuring guide placement from the reel to the intersect point be certain the line is just touching the tops of the guides. If you are running the line through the center of your guides it might account for your problem.

Maybe that is my problem. I was making sure the imaginary spindle/intersect line was just touching the outside most edge of each guide (the metal ring edge of the guide furtthest away from the guide foot and rod blank). I thought this was the correct one based on the Kirkman article/diagram. Man, if I got that wrong I sure will be the idiot of the day!

Scott,
I am a bit confused. It sounds like we are describing the same place on each guide. I assume you tie a line from the spindle and run it along a straight edge to determ ine where it intersects the rod. Then, placing the guides along the blank at places that conform to the advice in the Library you pick the place where the very top of the guide fits under the line and just touches it. The first guide from the fore grip is placed within the range as noted by Tom Kirkman. The rest should follow the inherent flex of the blank while preventing any rod slap.

You stated that you made the arbor using fewer wraps of tape as you worked toward the fore end of the reel seat. That seems backward to me, since the blank gets narrower toward the tip end while the reel seat has a uniform diameter. Unless I am missing something I would expect you to need more wraps as you work forward on the reel seat. Frankly I cannot see how you can center the blank in the reel seat the way you described wrapping the tape.

Just a few thoughts which I hope will help sort out this problem.

Look closely at the picture in the Concept article in the library. The Intersect point is the point that the BLANK crosses the edge of the table. There is no line involved in the layout. The picture shows that you want to use guides that are the right height in the set up

Mike

Mike,
By running a line from the spindle to the intersect point you get an accurate reference for selecting the height of each guide. This is much better than just using the short spindle to determine the precise angle. Once the line is attached at the intersect point you can fit the guides with certainty where thwey just touch the line. This method removes all guesswork and estimations.

David: You've lost me a bit there. You are still using the short spindle to determine the angle of your line, with the same same possible inaccuracy. Once the intersect point is determined (estimated), you can mark that point, and then the table edge, your line, or whatever straight reference you like, can be used to locate the guide positions.

Tom,
You are correct. I am using the same short spindle as the basis for finding the correct angle to determine the intersect point on the rod. But by running a line from that short spindle along the straight path as determined by the edge of the table or a mark on the floor I get an tangible line against which I can place my guides precisely with no chance of making a mistake. I make sure the top of each guide just touches that line as opposed to just sighting down on each guide. I find this method removes any chance of making a mistake. It is not the only way to do it but the one which gives me the most assurance of accuracy.

David: Thanks for the clarification. We're on the same wavelength now.

David,

Yeah you are right about the reel seat mounting. I did it the way you described it....using more wraps for the arbors as I went out along the reel seat toward the tip. I just described it backwards in my post. Thanks for the clarification.

Scott Hunt