I'm just curious as a novice how the experienced builders on this site weigh in on Hi build epoxy versus multiple coats of the lite epoxy when doing guide wraps. Obviously mulitple coats of the lite is a more time consuming process, but if time is not a factor, are there any advantages of one over the other, i.e. superior results, less trouble with bubbling, differences in durability, etc.?

I find the bubbles are easier to remove from the lite.

Freddwhy (Rapt-Ryte)

After trying a lot of different ones, I settled on LS Supreme High Build as my favorite! You can always put a high build on in light coats if you prefer.
I'm sure you will get a lot of opinions. Ultimately, you'll have to go with what works best for you

Mike

My preferences of guide finish choices for new rods for inshore saltwater rods is as follows. There is no underwrap on guides and all thread is A with metallic three thread trim bands. All finish is applied on stationary blank with hand turning. Edges are trimmed on foot end on pass one and on tunnel end after completing first pass and allowing the tunnel to fill from soaking. I like the first coat of low build finish applied in a thin coat to saturate thread and displace air. I want to get as much of the tunnel filled with this application as possible. I want this coat of finish to have some flexibility. I do not thin nor do I apply heat to create any bubbles. I use Flexcoat Lite, LS Supreme and the AMTAK finishes dependent upon the thread color that I am using for the first coat. I consider that I have applied the correct amount of finish if I can see the thread wrap indentations on the surface. After this coat has cured for 12 hours I inspect very carefully and trim any "stick ups" or other irregularities before applying a second coat. I am pressed many times to get rods out the door before total hardening of the top coat can take place. If you let the rods go to the customer too quick they can easily become scratched on the surface. The finishes referenced above can take as long as five to seven days before the thumbnail test in the pan will pass. I currently apply a second coat of Glass Coat which may be considered a high build finish to all rods. This finish is extremely clear, will not make the footballs on the small guide wraps and gets hard very quickly. I also use Glass Coat on repairs simply due to the hardness factor.

Gon Fishn

i build freshwater rods for mainly steelhead/salmon and fly rods. I like streamlined rods that are light but high performing. I recently tried to use the High Build and did not have satisfactory results. (basically, take $250 of labor and if the finish gets messed up, either your customer wont have it or you will settle for a $75 labor bill) I have always used the light build but was pressed for time and used the high build to save time. i was told that "You can get a fairly thin coat". @#$%&! don't believe what everyone tells you, especially if they leave the part out on how they do it or what they think is a thin coat. My only advice is find something that works for you, master using it, and don't change unless there is a reason that will make your product better. From now on the only thing i will use High Build for is to finish off the tubes making Ice fishing rods. At least here you wont be able to tell the difference as your eyeballs will be glazed over with ice from the frozen lake and you wont be able to see any blemishes if they occur.

Oh yes, i almost forgot, like Fred, the bubbles are basically extinct in the light build and I like that better. I don't care if i have to put on 2 or 3, coats. It will still be thinner and lighter than using 1 coat of high build. (in my opinion)

FYI--Just coated ice fishing thread wraps and they turned out fairly thin using the high build. (2-2-05) Had to modify the brush by cutting off 3/4 of the bristles. But it allowed for better control with moving the flex coat around. (it also did not set up as fast as it did the last time i use the flex coat) Any sugestions on why this occured would be appreciated. I dont know why it started setting up as i placed it on an Al foil sheet.

MI Builder



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2005 02:13PM by James Gentz.

I use a lite epoxy applied in multiple coats. The brand I use is called Hobby Poxy and I will normally use 3 or 4 coats. This gives me the neat appearance of a varnished wrap with the durability of epoxy. In my opinion, using high-build epoxy is a time saving & cost saving method used by manufacturers to make more money with less effort. A single coat of high-build epoxy probably does an adequate job of protecting the wraps, but is cosmetically sloppy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2005 10:41PM by Rob Matarazzo.

Like anything else, it takes practice to develop a method that works for you with High build. There is a learning curve associated with using ANY new epoxy. LS Supreme High is probably the thickest finish out there and it is very easy to put it on thin enough to feel the thread ridges if you want to. You just have to get a feel for it's properties and apply a thin layer of it. You can get a bad finish with any epoxy but it's usually caused by the application, not the epoxy

I would doubt that any manufacturer's use high builds. They are not exactly innovators and probably haven't changed their finish choice in 20 years

Mike

I build light fresh water rods and use high build. Like Mike, if you learn to work with it, you can put on so light of a coat that you have thread bumps and need the second coat. We all need to learn to use the tools of our trade, what works for us, and keep an open mind to the fact that what doesn't work for me may work very well for someone else.

Putter

In reference to Mr. James Gentz basically saying there in no way possible to get a thin finish with High Build. I can do it and have seen numerous others do it with no problems. Now Mr. Gentz i'm even gonna tell you how I do it....I put on my finish as usual just a little thinner initially, then as the rod is turning or you can turn it by hand, you lightly scrape all the excess finish off of the wraps using your spatula, brush or whatever. Turn for a little longer and then do it again and take off any if theres any left to remove. Now I've told you how I do it now i'm even gonna tell you what I think is a thin coat....when I get done doing it this way I can see the thread is barely covered and in some spots still shows through warranting another coat. Now is that thin enough for you Mr. Gentz?
High build is just low build with a little "something" extra that allows it to support more of its own weight or hold more onto itself, so if you remove that weight or "extra" on your wraps you basically have low build finish, so thats why I was a little suprised to see someone make this assumption.
Noel



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2005 08:58AM by Noel Spann.

I build mostly inshore saltwater rods and use FC lite build, not because I think it's better than any of the other finishes, but because I can get all I need locally and that's the finish I learned to use.

Listen to Mike and Randy, you ultimately have to find a method and product that works for you. There are almost as many ways of applying finish as there are rodbuilders to finish them. Practice and expermentation will get you there.

Regards......Doug@
TCRds

I use Glass Coat. I think most people think of it as high build. Like Bill, I like its clarity and hardness, plus, it seems to level better; II don't know why, it just does for me and within my routine.

I apply it in two coats, if I have not used CP. Without CP, my intent with the first coat is to "seal" the thread, let air escape and have as close to perfect level coating as I can. That is try to get some of the advantages of CP (without some of the hazzards :) ) I apply just enough to get a uniform dark color of thread and then remove the excess. I'm looking to get the dark color that shows the thread has soaked in the finish, but still see the thread knowing that they will really show when dry. I will say that with Glass Coat's short pot life, I usually have to mix up multiple batches to keep the viscosity I like. That works out OK for me because I slowly hand turn a long time into the drying process anyway. This has helped me get a more level and smoother coat. I let the first coat dry for at least 8 hours. Then I apply the second coat, also thin, but this time I'm looking for a uniform, thin, "wet" look across the entire wrap. I also use a fly tying bobkin to make sure the tunnel is completely filled.

As other's have said, this is the routine (ritual?) that I have developed that works for me. I have seen superb work using very different routines. The common factor seems to be working out the details that works best for the builder and then consistently using the technique. This is not to say that you should completely avoid attempting to improve by using new products, applicators, etc. However, I don't try to "improve" on my routine until I've practiced it enough times that it becomes "routine", then I switch if I think it gives better results (for example, switching over to Glass Coat and not placing the rod immediately on a dryer).

Lite more time consuming? No, not really. I still will use two coats.

Superior results? No, one not better than the other.

Bubbling? Except for a solvent base finish from years ago I have not seen a finish that is truely bubble free. They will all hold bubbles, some more than others - I don't trust ANY finish not to hold bubbles. The lite versions release bubbles a little easier but don't let this fool you - it will still hold bubbles.

Durability? The same. I have not seen any difference in durability.. Without naming brands one heavy build finish in particular does seem to remain more pliable over the long term, though it tends to yellow more.

Best for you to order small bottles of different brands of finish and try them all out. They are all good, but their characteristics differ a liitle from one to the other. The application of finish is more of an art than a technique, there is not one "best" way to do it - pick the finish and method of applicaiton that works best for you., then go from there. Small bottles of finsh are inexpensive, what you'll learn using them will be invaluable.

Lou

Many years ago when I asked that question, one person gave me the simplist answer and I find it applies to an awful lot of things. He said (and now I say): find one that you can easily get and stick with it. You will learn all the particulars of that finish and become proficient in applying that one. Like Mike Barklley said, there is a learning curve, stick with one and you'll get through that curve the quickest.

Goog luck,
Bruce Vetre
VRC

Thanks for the replies everybody. When building fishing plugs, I've always been most comfortable using multiple thin coats of epoxy clear coat to get pleasing results, so I guess I'll stay consistent with that philosophy. If nothing else, your consensus has said that.

What are you crazy?.............What planet do you come from?