I understand that CP is used to maintain the original thread color, and if several coats are used it would make sense that the threads would be fully encapsulated plus it would act as a slight bonding agent to the blank as well. It would also make sense then that when the finish is applied, the CP would restrict the penetration of the epoxy into the wrap and it would be "suspended" on the outside surface only.

I have removed test wraps where CP was used and I recall those wraps came off of the blank rather easily whereas a wrap without CP had the finish soak thru the threads and bond against the blank as well making removal difficult.

So are wraps without CP stronger/more durable than those with CP?

In a nutshell, yes. Cp is NOT a bonding agent - it connot be used by itself or it would rapidly degrade exposed to moisture. On the otherhand finish is an adhesive with much greater stregnth than cp - and CAN be used by itself without being degraded by moisture.

Cp sealed guide wraps, that have been overcoated with finish, will readily absorb moisture through any guide foot cracking that may occur. This will result in a softened cp sealed guide wrap that is encapsulated with an epoxy coating. This is not ideal.

Over the years I have learned to pick thread and colors in types that do not require color preserver. I use many of the darker colored nylons and metallics. This allows me not to use cp on any of the wraps i make. I sometimes use some of the lighter colored nylons with their translucent characteristic is desired when cp is not used.

I manily build rods for saltwater use. Many rods are in harsh use on boats and surf. The baits I use by themselves can weigh up to 3lbs, so weak wraps are not an option.....

[members.cox.net]

Lou

Lou Reyna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Cp sealed guide wraps, that have been overcoated
> with finish, will readily absorb moisture through
> any guide foot cracking that may occur. This will
> result in a softened cp sealed guide wrap that is
> encapsulated with an epoxy coating. This is not
> ideal.

This will also happen on guides wrapped with no CP. Once the epoxy cracks and water gets in, the guides will rust. You may not notice it on darker colors, but I've built a coupld of rods with light colors such as 1011 Nylon and to be honest after 2 years teh rod looks like crap.

A different opinion (and it's JUST an opinion)--- This can be a heated topic, but I don't see where the use (or not) of CP has any effect whatsoever on the strength of a wrap. The large number of threads wrapped around the guide are what holds the guide in place, not the finish. I also think (the key word here is think) that because of the much larger number of wraps that A thread takes to go around a guide, that A thread might actually provide more holding power that D. I would really like to see someone with the capability/equipment to actually test these things.

Finish is NOT an adhesive (if it were, you wouldn't be able to peel it off), it's actually a casting resin (I really wish that the industry would refer to it a "finish" rather than epoxy so it wouldn't be so confusing). It's pupose is to cover and protect the threads from the elements/abrasion, etc., not to strengten it (I have seen post on this board from people who have fished rods for more than a year with NOTHING over the wraps and, guess what, no problems! A thread wrap is actually much stronger than most think. Everyone always said that Madiera was great for decorative wrapps but much to thin/weak for guides. Mark Crouse (Munich Rodman) hung a 16.4 lb box of laundry detergent from a wire guide with a 7mm thread wrap of Madiera with NO CP or FINISH!!!! Guess what? It held fine. Here is the picture
[www.fishingphotos.net]

I'm 65 yrs old and have NEVER seen a fish pull a guide off or a wrap broken. I have seen guides pulled out many times by rod lockers, etc. and rotted by a poor wrap allowing water to get beneath it. More so on factory rods, which incidently, don't use CP (for speed and economical reasons. I can honestly say that I have never had a guide wrap give on a rod that I've built and I always use CP (even on metallics).

Didn't mean to get so long winded but I would really like to see someone actually do some legitimate tests to either prove or disprove
these hotly debated opinions.

Remember, before you attack, this is entirely my opinion!!

Mike


"Let the Debates Begin"!!!!!!!!!!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/09/2005 12:47PM by Mike Barkley.

Hay Lou, Nice fish!!

Tim,
As Mike points out there are different opinions about this issue but
I have had the same experience that you have had. It has been more difficult to get guides off that have epoxy and no color preserver on them than guides that were put on and color preserver used. In fact, I have often had the epoxy pull up the finish off of a blank when it was removed but I have never had that problem, that I can remember, with a guide that had color preserver applied to it.
I think that guides that are put on using color preserver are plenty strong enough but I also think that they are strongER if no color preserver is used.

Emory,

I agree with you that the wraps that have no CP are harder to get off. My question is does it matter?? I have tried on test pieces to pull a guide with CP off of a blank and was phically unable to do it (I could, however bend the guide and in one instance, actually break it with no damage to the wrap!!)

Again, I have no data to support it, but I would doubt that there is really very much pressure put on a guide by even the largest fish, except for maybe the tip top.

Mike

It seems that it's safe to say that a guide wrap encased in only thread finish offers better protection of the guide thread against abrasion and water infiltration, than a wrap which first has CP applied to it, simply because thread finish is more impervious to water than color preserver, and has a greater hardness as well. (Note I didn't say "stronger"; not yet !)

When first wrapped and sealed, I would think that there would be NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE between the holding power of a wrap sealed in only thread finish (TF), and a wrap sealed in CP+TF.

HOWEVER, after some period of time of actual use, and exposure to flexing, water, salt & fish slime, I would expect the TF-only finish to be stronger than the CP+TF wrap. Maybe not by much. Most fisherman would say that it is quite rare for a guide to come out. And those guides that do get ripped out may have NOT had enough thread TENSION tension from day one.

I would say, flat out, that it is the THREAD and it's TENSION that holds the guide in place. NOT the thread finish or the CP+TF.

The TENSION under which the thread is wound around the guide foot & blank applies the friction to the guide that keeps it from slipping or sliding around on the blank. That amount of TENSION is ALWAYS less than the TENSILE STRENGTH of the thread. If it were not, then the thread would simply break !

However, it is the TENSILE STRENGTH of the thread which resists the force of an outward pull (at a right-angle to the rod blank), which is trying to rip the guide off the blank. That force can never exceed the tensile strength of the FISHING LINE; again, if it did, the fishing line would break, and the force would end.

I'd say, let's remember that CP is used to retain the COLOR of the thread. It is not superior to Thread Finish in protecting the thread from water, abrasion or UV-light deterioration. TF just seals the thread in a protective coating. TF does NOT hold the thread on the blank. The thread's TENSION does that. TF has very poor adhesive properties. And for the majority of applications, using A, C, D or E size thread will result in wraps of sufficient strength.

IMO. -Cliff Hall, Gainesville, FL-

Mike Barkley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> Everyone always said that Madiera was great for
> decorative wrapps but much to thin/weak for
> guides. Mark Crouse (Munich Rodman) hung a 16.4
> lb box of laundry detergent from a wire guide with
> a 7mm thread wrap of Madiera with NO CP or
> FINISH!!!! Guess what? It held fine.

Not everyone, that was me that said that. Based on a straight pull test where I wrapped a size 10 BNLGH guide with MAdeira, no finsh, ran 50# test through this one guide, put both my feet on teh blank so it stayed on teh floor, and pulled. TEH thread wraps broke. Did the same with Gudebrd, teh guide bent & deformed. Ergo - "Madeira is not strong enough."

HOWEVER, I don't know what the heck I did that day, but I've done the same test 3 or 4 times since Mark posted that picture, and I do agree Madeira IS strong enough for the rods I build except Offshore, and that's only because I'm scared of Offshore rods. I'm sure it would work just fine there too. I have apologized to people for that bit of misinformation on my part.

Carry on, lol.

Cliff,

You said better than did, but there is one statement that I don't understand

"It seems that it's safe to say that a guide wrap encased in only thread finish offers better protection of the guide thread against abrasion and water infiltration, than a wrap which first has CP applied to it, simply because thread finish is more impervious to water than color preserver, and has a greater hardness as well. (Note I didn't say "stronger"; not yet !)" Why would a guide encased only in TF offer BETTER protection against abrasion/water infiltration than one that has CP?? As you said, CP is used for color preservation only. Onve you cover the entire wrap, including CP, any abrasion or water infiltration would have to have come through the finish (or lack of it) As you say, "thread finish is more impervious to water than color preserver, and has a greater hardness as well." If that is the case, any damage to the threads would HAVE to be a result of the improper coat of finish over it, since only the finish is exposed to the elements or mis use.

If nothing can get through the finish, what is under it,CP, should have no effect whatsover on it

As I said before, our opinions, including mine, are just that and without some actual comparative data to substantiate them, have little to stand on.,

Mike.

I really don't want to get into this debate but I may be able to assist in a couple of ways.
1.The effect Mike was talking about with more strands of size A to cover a set distance than size D was termed the "Gulliver principle" by Aussie builder, Ian Miller. It basically means, the thinner the thread, the more you can pack in that given distance, then the stronger will be the finished product. Worked on Gulliver!
2.The choice of CP or no CP will in most cases come down to the customer. If the builder takes the time to explain the different effects etc, then surely the choice comes back to the customer. I build both with CP and without CP. If you fish both hard they will wear and have to be replaced. I think it all comes down to the effect you want or the choice you make.


Regards
Mark

Mark,

Great minds think alike!!!! LOL

CP/No CP is pretty much a cosmetic/visual preference and has little bearing, if any, on the strength/performance/durability, etc.of the rod

Mike

The other effect using CP on guide wraps gives on many wraps: the tunnels do not get filled and the guide starts working loose after use. This tends to cut the wrapping threads and causes all kinds of problems.
No CP on guide wraps for this guy... Just my opinion; I agree with Flex Coat on this, they don't recommend CP on guide wraps either.

Putter

On heavier rods, why bother with CP, just use a Silver underwrap with Nylon & let it "bleed"- the color will stay exactly the same as on teh spool.

Putter,

Than why is it that EVERY rod that I have personally seen where the guides have come loose has been a commercial rod where no CP was used??
I prep the undersides as well as the tops of my guides and add finish to the guide/wrap openings with a pic and use locking wraps on ALL singlefoot huides. I have rods MANY years old and no loose guides.

Personally, I think the CP/No CP/stregth issue is about as vaild as the one where you have to use double foot guides on casting rods!

Here's an interesting thought. You and I both mostly use metallics on guides and the finish or CP doesn't penetrate the thread anyways!!!!!!

Old habits/myths die hard!!!

Mike

The finish doesn't penetrate into each individual thread, but it does go between the threads and fill the voids below the thread as long as the finish isn't put on after it is starting to set up and the speed of rotation allows it to do this. I use 2 RPM.

The speed with which commercial makers apply finish has much to do with the failures. The speed of rotation doesn't allow the finish to work between the threads and winds up just being a top coat.

This, in my opinion, gives the best protection to any guide wrap. Putting CP on first does not allow this to happen. That, in a nut shell, is why I don't use it. I want this "encapulation" of my threads by the best product to protect them, epoxy finish.

I still don't believe that my walleye fishing on fresh water would make two hoots in a holler difference if I did it either way, but I still want to do the best job and provide the best protection to my wraps that I know how to do.

There are obviously a lot wiser and more experienced persons who can contribute to this issue than I, but I have one observation regarding the stregnth and durability of CP vs. no CP use.

My principles in us of CP is that it is a cosmetic treatment to mitigate thread wrap colors from bleeding. It's use in light and FW rods appears to be of little concequence, except for it's intended application.

I believe that the use of finish without CP is mandated for heavy and saltwater rods, (Excepting butt wraps?) regardless of bleed considerations, because my priority is functionality.

What I would observe is that finished thread wraps made without CP are in fact much stronger than the thread wraps alone. Granted that the purpose of finish is to protect and preserve the wraps, but thread wraps with finish alone appear to me to be a low-tech form of a composite, kind of like concrete with iron re-bar has properties beyond any of the constituent parts (The sum of the total is greater than the parts.)

Epoxy finish is not a bonding agent, either. It will not adhere to your blank.

The difference between wraps made with or without CP is roughly 10%.

..........

Edward (et all),

My main observation and the reason I even started this is, How do you KNOW??? You said "What I would observe is that finished thread wraps made without CP are in FACT much stronger than the thread wraps alone" What did you observe and how did you, or anyone, determine this as a FACT.?????
I think that it is pretty much agreed that the strength of a wrap is determined by the thread being wound around the guide/blank. That being the case, how can CP or finish affect that strength. It can't!!! Finish can protect a wrap, but it doesn't strengthen it.

We all have opinions, but no one (including myself) has been able to provide one iota of data/test results or actual facts to back our opinions up!

I'm not trying to change anyones mind, just wondering where some of the "facts" that surround rodbuilding originate and why we accept so many things as "fact" with nothing more tangible to back them up than tradition or opinion.

I see knowledgable, highly respectaed builders who say that you have to use double foot guides and underwraps, double and triple wraps on heavy duty rods and other just as knowledgable builders say just the opposite. If they were to say that it is their opinion, that would be one thing, but when they start presenting them as facts, it becomes very misleading and confusing to builders who post questions and get all these opposing "facts"!!!!

Mike

I didn't expect my question to receive this much attention but if epoxy finish is not a bonding agent and will not adhere to a blank, why is the residue so hard to get off when stripping a rod? Seems like it's sticking pretty good to me.