I know you're suppose to fill the guide tunnels when epoxing to keep water out but I'm starting to wonder why? The guides shouldn't rust, it won't harm the blank, and the threads should be fully encapsulated with epoxy so I can't figure out the harm.

Saltwater might leave salt build ups in it but I can't see what freshwater harm would be unless bacteria started growing little gardens of junk inside. The only real harm I could think of would be water getting in when winter Steelhead fishing and that water would freeze and expand.

I'll continue to fill the tunenels, I'd just like to know the main reason why? Thanks.

Hey Tim,
I have only encountered this on the first rod I built, but eventhough I filled in the tunnel the feet of the guides (Fuji) that are on that rod have now started to rust through the over wraps! Granted I used white NCP which would show this more than on a darker wrap. But I (as most builders I assume would) grind down the feet before wrapping to decrease the step up on the threads, which would allow for corrosion to this area. I have heard of some folks dipping the feet in clear fingernail polish for an extra protective step. So unless you are using a non-corosive foot I would asume this is a safe precaution to take.

I'm not sure but you might also encounter dry rot on the threads. Not sure if that would really matter witht he epoxy over then, just a possible risk I guess???? Maybe even a change to the color of the thread????

Tom

The epoxy filling the tunnel supports the guide foot, Just as you can move the foot around before you put finish on the wraps, you'll be able to after the finish is on if you don't fill the tunnels, it will just take a bit more force.

Actually I like filling the whole tunnel opening, not just the end. Guides do corrode in salt water, even some stainless steel guides. How can you be sure of saturating the threads and fully protecting them if the tunnel is not full? Any good reason not to fill the tunnel?

Yes, you should fill the guidefoot tunnels. Ralph

If at first you don't succeed, go fishing, then try, try again.

Guide frames, even though commonly made of 'stainless steel' do rust, especially in salt water use. Corrosion also happens in freshwater use, but at a much slower rate. Note that stainless steel does rust, it is simply more resistant to corrosion than carbon steel or most other steel alloys. Some SS alloys are much more resistant to corrosion than others. Fuji's S4 (H2?) SS alloy appears to be an improvement over earlier SS alloys. It is my experience is that other manufacturers' SS alloys are not as rust-resistant as Fuji's S4. Titanium appears to be the only metal in common use for guide frames that have such a small rate of corrosion as to be neligable when used in saltwater enviroments, but again this would depend upon the Ti alloy used.

The issue of rusting guides can be easily under-appreciated. Corrosion of guide frames is not a matter that you can redily observe under most conditions, even with extensive saltwater use. It is a slow, but persistant action. It can take years to form significant corrosion. Most succeptable are rods which are not rinsed off following every use in salt or brackish water.

Note that there are good reasons to take the precaution of rinsing off rods following saltwater use: (1) The salts precipitate onto all surfaces after the saltwate dries. This effect is damaging to all metals on a rod, as the sea salts are highly corrosive in and of themslves. (2) Once the rod is "dry", the problem becomes worse. The dried salts readily absorb water from the air in humid conditions to create small collections of highly concentrated salts solutions, which are mch more corrosive than normal salt water. This condition is excacerbated where the physical conditions allow for recurring collection of sea salts, like airspaces under and next to guide feet. An in humid locales, like southern states and particularly costal enviroments, this means that the semi-enclosed areas like guide feet may never dry off.

I'd also echo earlier notes to the effect of a stronger bond for the guide to the blank. Upon disassembly of rods I built many years ago, the models I did not completely fill around the guide feet on were relatively easy to disassemble. Not only did the aispace provide an unsupported area to easily cut and shear off guides, but corrosion was much more present than models that had guide feet completely filled. I would say that the models with filled guide feet were at a minimum 3-4X stronger in terms of the force required to shear off the guide following scoring of the wrapping threads.

Quote "threads should be fully encapsulated with epoxy"

Don't be so sure of this. With multiple layers of thread and a thick (high build) epoxy the lower layers of thread may not get saturated. And if they don't they can 'rot'. Remember its the thread that holds the guides onto the rod, the epoxy only protects the thread. Also, as already mentioned by others, guide frames can and do corrode.

Dave

I do quite a few repairs, and my main ones are with the larger, size 20, 25 and 30 guides on spinning rods, where the tunnel wasn't sealed. Without thorough thread saturation, and soakthrough under the guide foot, the guide moves, loosening and eventually breaking the thread. For this reason I only use CP when absolutely necessary- I don't like the way it seals off the thread. Without CP, the finish coat (I use FC lite) soaks through the thread and completely fills in under the guide foot. This has nothing to do with corrosion- the guides usually dont' show rust, if used in fresh water only. The rods I most commonly fix are king salmon rods, which undergo huge loads on a regular basis. Kings offer a true test of a rod's character!

This another reason I too do not use cp, and use it only absolutely necessary (rarely) and then only on butt wraps - never on guide wraps. CP will absorb moisture through any finish cracking, and will lead to further problems.

I like to apply a FIRST thin coat of finish and turn the rod "guides down" and allow the finish to wick through the thread and tunnel expelling air in the tunnels - on this first coat do not dab any finish over the mouth of the tunnel so that air can escape as it is displaced by the wicking finish. Using this technique I rarely get any "tunnel effect" trapped air. Apply this coat quickly so that the finish is as free flowing as possible, before is gets a chance to begin setting up - it will have maximum penetrating and wicking effect.

Lou

The first poster did not mention the use of Color Preserver. Is there any way to NOT seal the tunnels?

Yes, Bill... sorry if the CP thread strays from the original post a little bit. If you look at rods from some manufacturers who use color preserver on their rods, or a two coat process (I'm not going to name names, but one is a major, high quality US manufacturer), you will see many guides where the tunnel is not filled in. The sealed thread causes the epoxy to run away from the tunnel, instead of into it. The finish coat is applied to the rod at high rpm's, then the rod is placed on a slower turning drum while the epoxy sets. On these rods, the clear ring does not fully circle the wrap nearest the guide's ring- there is a gap there, and the epoxy draws back onto the guide foot, leaving the last threads and often the tunnel exposed. So yes, there is a way to NOT seal the tunnels. I have a picture posted at the following url (since the phorums board is being upgraded): [www.angelfire.com] One thing that would have helped to get this tunnel filled, is a shorter wrap. By wrapping all the way to the rise of the guide, the builder left no room for a clear ring. The other option would have been a locking wrap. (suggested retail on this rod is $120- another good reason to custom build!)

I can echo Bill's observations, regarding some manufacturer's practices. I have two rods in my collection that are from top tier US labels which had the problem Bill illustrated. They cost $250.00 and $275.00, so these are relatively high end models. I was dismayed to see that these rods had several guides that were not completely encapsulated, specifically with airspaces adjacent to the guide feet. I refinished these rods. These experiences were among the reasons I took up custom rodbuilding.

I stopped using CP years ago due to concerns that the CP was preventing proper epoxy encapsulation, especially around guide feet. I am aware that Dale Clements and perhaps others have conducted some tests on this issue, but my experience was that completely sealing with CP resulted in weaker results, especially with heavier SW models.

My experience was that CP treated wraps seemed to be more difficult to encapsulate, but of even greater concern was that the threads themselved appeared not to absorb any significant epoxy.


I now use a minimal application of low-build Flex Coat for a sealing coat, and then a higher build finish in 2 to 3 applications.

I should note, however, that this approach may not be commercially viable. I build only for myself and family/friends. I am pretty sure I could not sell a rod with any margin based upon time and materials, even at premium custom prices.