For those who have used both recoils and Alconites (or similar from PacBay, Forecast, or AmTak)) as fly rod guides, how would you compare the two for preventing line wear and slickness/quietness of line passage through the guides. I understand the recoils are supposed to be resistant to all corrosion and be very durable. But I fish freshwater and the inexpesive ceramics are also extremely durable in that environment. I'm considering rewrapping some of my Alconite fly rods with single foot recoils over the winter. If you've tried both, I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. These are all 2-7wt. freshwater rods. I'm thinking I might gain some crispness with no downside other than slightly more expensive.

By the way, the rods I'm considering rewrapping are crisp, fast action, soft tipped rods: St. Croix 4F864 and Five Rivers FT863-4, both of which currently have #6 Alconites. I don't see the point in rewrapping rods that are inherently non-crisp to begin with. I have many rods in that latter category and like them a lot for different applications. They perform great with inexpensive and relatively heavy ceramics like PacBay Hialoys.

If you can lighten the rods, particularly near the tip, then the "crispness" will pick up even more. But I've got similar rods and the small, low frame alconites or SIC just aren't that heavy. I'd be interested in hearing your results, although I'm going to be surprised if you can find that much actual difference in the hand.

.............

Steve,

Without a doubt the ceramics are quieter and smoother in all cases. Your line will last longer with ceramics (though it is largely a function of the tip being ceramic) for sure.

The weight factor is up to you. I just built a forecast 7'9" 3 wt (old blanks) with #6 TiCH/TiCH forecast ceramic guides. They don't overload that rod by any means. If you stick with small ceramics with light rings (Alconite, zirconia, SiC), then you benefit greatly with ceramics.

The only time I will go away from this logic is with really small/thin rods, typically under a 3 wt. Then the added weight really does impact the blank. In those cases I will go with wire guides (preferably recoil).

Thanks,
Rick

Just holding the rod in your hand, I'm sure it would be noticeable. You are going from steel to very light wire on some crazy light blanks. But the fly line weight on even the shortest of casts is so great relative to the weight difference between these two types of guides that I find it hard to believe you could tell a difference in a fishing situation...

I love the feel of reeling a fish in on a fly rod with ceramic guides. I can really feel every tug of the fish thanks to the slickness. I wonder if the Recoils are as slick as the Alconite? I find it hard to believe.

Steve- when you finish, lets go catch some trout. They stocked below my house not long ago and no one has fished there for a long time. We'll put my Fuji titanium SIC 4F864 and your Recoil wrapped 4F864 in a head-to-head contest both with a bare rod and on some fish.

You're on Mike! You guys are providing some good advice and feedback and it makes sense to me. I'll save my time and use it fishing with Mike instead of rewrapping.

Mike,

The Recoils are not as smooth as any ceramic I've used in either casting or (especially) fish fighting. I can cast just as far with them as ceramics, but there is a good bit of noise and it takes more force to haul with them.

Thanks,
Rick

Steve. I have been debating the same re-wrap on Dan Craft's 6' 10" 1 weight. I am using Recoils on some very thin 0 weights blanks. After examining the blank diameter on the 1 weight, I think I will leave the guides for the time being. I am not sure I am sensitive enough to detect the difference. If you happen to have the same rod wrapped with Recoils, I will make mine available for comparison.

Steve,

I just finished my first rod with all ceramics.....a 9.5 ft Lamigals Esprit, 7 wt. In my test casting (yard only) I'm astounded by the difference in sound and perceived smoothness through the guides. I'm a quick convert to them on larger, say 6wt +, rods. I'm not sure that I would put them on my 8'4 4 wt Sig V. however. It is so light and crisp that I don't think I would fool with it. But then you know way more than I....So I'm pretty sure I'm not telling you anything you didn't figure out a long time ago.

First steelhead trip on Sunday, perhaps. I'm ready....

Keith

I don't have that Dan Craft rod and really don't fish with anything lighter than a 3 wt. line. For the lines I'm using, Mike Naylor's point makes a lot of sense but for a line that weights nothing, you might want to give recoils a try. I would if I had that rod.

Glad you like your ceramics Keith. By the way, I was responding to Don in the post above - referring to his 1 wt. That 844-3 Sig. V would not be bogged down by Fuji BLAGs in 6. As Naylor says, you'd notice it until the rod is strung up with line and then you'd only notice the advantages of ceramics.

well, i'm pondering the next step in building my 2 piece rainforest 7'9" 3 weight rod. i'll be fishing small to medium sized sierra streams for rainbow, brook, golden and brown trout, rarely up to 12 inches, mainly with 12 to 20-sized dries. i was thinking of trying out the ceramic (alconite?) guides but occasionally, i ponder using recoils. what would you better learned people suggest? i imagine i can't really go wrong either way.

eric
fresno, ca.

Steve, FWIW - I weighed some Fuji BLAG size 6 and REC RSF size 2 guides --- BLAG = 2.84 grains each, RSF = 1.03 grains each.

The RSF size 2 were the smallest RSF I could find - size 1 may be available; the REC website is contradictory on this.

A problem I have with the REC single foot fly guides is their diameters. The Size 2 have a diameter of 0.235 inch = 6 mm -- bigger than I'd like on 2-7 wt fly rods. No specs for a size 1 are given on REC's web site.

Based on all the input on this thread I would go with small ceramics. In tight quarters where it's hard to cast, ceramics make it very easy to to "shake" out line to get a better drift. I just built a 2005 St. Croix 4F793.4 and ended up using chrome Alconites CLAG in size 6. I really ought to sell it to get some cash but I can't bring myself to do it yet. Used exotic burl rings from Andy Dear as the grip material and a birdseye upslide maple seat from Bob Venneri. Dang nice little rod.

Bill, thanks for providing those weights.

Just curious if your opinions would be just as favorable on ceramics versus snakes??

Mike

I think the opinions and comparisons of ceramics versus snakes have been made on this site many times. Most who've tried them seem to greatly prefer ceramics, with the possible exceptions of 1) winter steelhead fishermen (icing); and 2) super ultralight 0, 1, 2 wt. fly rods. Since I don't really deal with either of the exceptions, and since recoil seems to lag way behind ceramic on slickness and quietness, looks like it'll stay #6 ceramics for me.

REC does make a size 1 in the light wire single foot. I just got some.
I have used size 5 ceramics on these little rods, but they don't like to pass even a loop connector. Steve may be right on a 3 weight being the cut off for ceramics. Snakes are never in the running.