I've been wondering - we want guides as light as possible and would all like to use titanium framed guides which unfortunately are very expensive.
So I'm thinking - why not make guides with aluminum frames - aluminum is cheap and light.
The only reason I can think of why it wouldnt work would be that aluminum isnt as strong as steel and titanium and would require thicker frames which would be just as heavy as steel.

Can anyone who knows his metals please "teach me a lesson" ?

Thanks
Peter

Although very light, pure aluminium is not as strong. Structural aluminium is actually and Al alloy. You're quite right in that you'd need much thicker frames for the same strength.

Aluminium also corrodes, and would have to be anodized, which would up the costs.

BINGO ! Ted hit the bull's eye on all the key considerations. But Peter, yours is a creative & excellent question. I, for one, don't think I've ever heard it before. Aluminum OXIDE may form a strong ceramic when fused, which was the basis for Fuji's earliest ceramic guides and I think the Hardloy. But Aluminum METAL is a different material, as Ted said. -Cliff Hall-.

Anodized Aluminum guides should be the wave of the future. REd, Purple, Ice Blue colored guide frames. Just be careful not to bang the rod around.

Thanks for the insight guys,
now I've learned a little more.

I hadnt thought of the hardness factor, but still - a lot of fly reels are made of some kind of aluminum alloy and they seem to be stiff enough.
I'm thinking of the Waterworks ULA Purist I once had - the spool sides were very thin but still very strong.

But then again I suppose the cost of producing such aluminum alloys will send the price of a guide up where the titanium guides are - and we will have gained nothing.

I once asked Batson Enterprises why they didnt make a titanium guides that was cheaper than the Fuji - they told me it was almost impossible since the titanium would "eat" the tools very fast and tools are expensive.

Well - an extra job and I can go all titanium ... :-)

Thanks again
Peter

In general Aluminum is to soft & does not poses the strength proprieties needed to 1) Stamp, 2) Hold it's shape during usage, 3) Corrodes more then SST.

American Tackle Company is offering a titanium metal guide at 1/4 the price of Fuji's beginning the 1st of the year.

Tom McNamara
Mud Hole Custom Tackle

Guides are not lacking in strength - most all of them are greatly overbuilt.

A better question might be, why not guide frames made from graphite/nylon?

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There were some graphite or plastic framed guides around back in the early 90's. If I remember right Joe's father at AMTAK had some for a while, they were bulky and not very attractive. Joe help me out, am I right? Jesse

In a past life one of the mechanical engineers that worked for me spent almost all of his time designing plastic parts and I remember him showing me a list of about 100 different plastics all with different characteristics. Some of which could be impregnated with a variety of different fibers. It is possible to get plastics that have almost any set of properties that is desired. Some are many times as strong as steel by weight. They can be injection molded and most are very cheap, on the order of 50 cents to a dollar a pound, which means that with volume, to offset the cost of the tooling for the injection molding, guide frames of plastic should be very cheap and more than strong enough. They would also be corrosion resistant. It seems curious that someone has not done this unless I am missing something.

Tycoon Finor made nylon framed roller guides up until 1982,made many wire line rods with them, they were white and I would dye them different colors with Rit dye. The down side was when they got a lot of age on them the nylon became brittle and would sometimes shatter when dropped or banged around.Jesse

There's on doubt it could be done. The problem of containing a rigid ceramic ring in a flexible frame can also be overcome but using a frame design that is also rigid up top, yet compliant in the area of the feet and legs. This would eliminate the tendency of guide wraps to crack.

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Tom,
I think that the plastic could be moulded completely around the ceramic insert to eliminate the problem of the ceramic inserts coming out.

I'm sure something could be worked out. Daiwa has dabbled in such guides but in my opinion their design was somewhat poor and resulted in a somewhat heavy and stiff guide - exactly the opposite of what you'd want to use such material for in the first place.

Strong, light, highly flexible guides made from a composite nylon/plastic are the next logical step in fishing rod technology. The first company to design a good one will leapfrog everyone else overnight.

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I still have some nylon/graphite guides that came out in the mid/late 80's. Simply put there was no "customer appeal" . People are (or were) just used to looking at the components that are seen on factory built rods and are reluctant to 'think outside the box' . One "problem" with them was that they only came (or at least the only ones I saw and bought) in a matte grey finish that really is kind of ugly.
I'm sure Emory would know more about the plastics side of things - if you think about it for just a second "bullet proof/bullet resistant glass" is really not glass at all but high-impact plastic - which could be mixed in any frame color you could ever want - and it would be truely 'unique' - and the ceramic rings could be set into the frame rather than set onto it (the reason that the inside measurements for 20 mm rings aren't really 20mm for instance). There are a lot of possibilities - but it would also take a fair chunk of R&D money and retooling and testing and advertising and polling of the customer base. Likely what would have to happen before any of that happened is that one of the large companies (Shimano, Diawa, Penn etc.) would have to show serious interest in mass production.

That's all true, but we've been through the same process with regard to nylon/graphite reel seats. In a matter of just a few years, they become the best selling seat style, easily displacing the chrome over brass and aluminum seats that were used on 99% of all fishing rods up until the mid to late 1970's.

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Sorry if I came across as overly negative. I surely didn't mean to at all. I believe that it is time for a change to new, innovative materials - especially in the construction of guides. I also happen to think that once one manufacturer jumps on this they will own the market for several years due to patent laws ( I believe 3 years ). I also honestly believe that during that period they will reap an enormous profit -- and that we all will benefit. Spiral wrapping is making a comeback (including rolller guides)
In rod blanks Bamboo displaced wood. Solid Fiberglas displaced bamboo (for the most part). Hollow fiberglas displaced the solid glass rods (again for the most part) Graphite is displacing 100% fiberglas. More linear alignment is apparently going to replace the matrix graphite.
In wrapping thread Nylon has nearly completely taken over from silk threadsMore metallic threads are coming on line (as well as mylar for trim). Shims and shim material has shifted from cork to cord to cardboard to paper tape/masking tape to drywall tape to arbors...
Everything changes - and nearly always for the better so we too must adapt and learn to adopt new ideas.

I didn't find your post negative at all. You made some very valid points.

I do think it will happen at some point. Obviously as long as people will buy what you offer, there seems little reason to move to something new or better. At least that's how some companies are always going to look at things. But at some point one of the companies will move forward with a radical departure from today's guide designs. If they have a good design, they'll find themselves at the top of the heap. For awhile anyway.

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Thank you gentlemen,
this has been very interesting - lets just hope some manufacturer reads it too and starts thinking the same way.

Peter

Plastic framed guides would be ideal... light and corrosion proof. I remember that back in the early to mid 70's that Fuji offered a plastic slip on guide. They simply slid on from the tip and friction held them in place. As kids we were always damaging our fishing gear hauling it hither and yon on our bikes and almost all my friends had replaced their guides with Fuji slip ons. A modern updated variation of this concept would be great. A harder polycarbonate like Lexan could be used to make practically indestructible frames. I think Fuji currently makes a slip on guide but it uses a metal frame with a plastic liner ring inside the part that slips over the rod. An all plastic guide frame with an Alconite or SIC ring embedded would be the ticket. This would eliminate the artistry of wrapping guides but the plastic frames could be cast in various transparent or opaque colors. What a hoot... a set of multi colored transparent guides!

Fuji is the one company that dares to do new things. Everybody else just copies Fuji. That's why I think if it is ever done, Fuji will be the company to come out with good composite plastic guides.