I had an interesting thing happen to a couple of Fuji TLNSG10 guide frames that I thought I'd share.

As I was grinding the guide feet to a taper as I normally do with my disc sander, I heard and felt a "twing".... which was the sound of the guide frame fracturing at the junction between the guide ring and the "J" frame.

I wasn't putting any stress on the frame or even holding it by the frame. I had the guide secured to a nylon bolt with nylon nuts as a guide holder.

I thought it must have been a flaw in the frame... threw a brief tantrum... and I grabbed the next guide and started grinding it in the same manner... "TWING"... that one fractured too!

I'm thinking that the vibration from the disc sander caused the metal to fracture at the place where it has seen the most stress during manufacturing... and possibly the frames weren't annealed properly after being formed in order to relieve the stress in the metal at that point.

I know this titanium alloy is very hard and strong which makes me think that if it is not annealed properly during manufacure that it would become brittle and subject to this type of failure.

Any metallurgists out there that care to weigh in on it?

Erik

Erik , I dont know about the fracture but Ido know about grinding the feet, that is one reason I started using the Forecast guides,they do the grinding for you.

Erik,
I am not a metallurgist but I would be more inclined to suspect a problem with heat, thermal stress,. rather than vibration during your grinding of the feet of the guide. The friction from the grinding can cause a very high thermal gradient. You might try taking more time grinding the feet allowing more time for the heat to dissapate, using a grinding wheel that is less aggressive or abrasive which would result in less heat, or holding the guide with something that is metal and holding it close to the point where you are grinding so that it will act as a heat sink to draw the heat away. Also I am not sure but I suspect that the crack you are getting is in the steel not the titanium. I think that the titanium is just a thin plating over the steel.

HEY!!!!!!!!!! Erik, the same EXACT thing happened to me, with teh EXACT same guide. I've ground a bunch of BLNAG & CLNAG's, and never had this happen once. THE very first TLNSG10 I ground this happened, and at $x per guide I ended up being extremely careful with the rest and didn't take as much off as I normally do, or I wanted to. I wonder how many other guys have had this happen to them with these guide, maybe there is a defect.

BTW - I was using a slow speed bench grinder (1500RPM) with a 120 grit wheel, which takes the material of very sow, and does build up some heat.

I'd love to get an answer on this, as I wanted to return the guide but I just assumed I messed up. Now I'mthinking otherwise. Let the internet scandal begin, lol.

Thanks for the validation Billy... glad to know I'm not alone.

Emory... these are solid titanium guide frames... (the expensive ones)not the steel frames with titanium coating.

I've ground many titanium framed guides and this was the first time it happened... and it did not take a lot of grinding for this to occur.

I had my lathe turning at 1200 rpm with 120 grit on the sanding disc.

I'm sending them back to the supplier so that hopefully they'll send them back to Fuji so that they can see if they have a defect or not.

Erik

This very same break happened with one of my TLNSG's using a grinder, I put it down to overheating the frame. So went out and bought one of those grinders (honers), with one wheel with low rpm, and turning in a bath of water, never had any problems after that. The thing cost me the equivalent of $35, not an expensive item, but good enough to do the business on those expensive guides.
Hope this helps.
Martin E.

Martin - did the TI frame heat up? I noticed that they stayed cool throught teh grinding process. I also noticed it was difficult to take material off - I guess TI is harder than Stainless, huh? lol.

I'd love to get a response from Fuji, or a Fuji rep regarding this & whether it is an isolated problem, or somethig which occurs more often and nobody mentions it.

The Fuji guides are not plated - they are solid titanium alloy. They're also tough to grind.

You want to use an aluminum oxide wheel (usually white or pink) which is "friable." That means that as you grind, the AL breaks up and continually exposes fresh cutting surfaces. You can use a very aggressive grit if you want, and you'll still have very little heat build up.

What causes heat when grinding is the clogging or loading of the wheel face which then reduces your grinding operation to simply holding the object intended to be ground/shaped, against a wheel loaded with metal particles. Grinding or cutting ceases and you end up doing nothing but having a friction party. The result is a great amount of heat.

I have no idea if the heat is responsible for the crack you're experiencing, but it certainly isn't helping. Get rid of those cheap grey grinding wheels and get some good AL or SIC units. You'll thank yourself once you experience how quick and easy, and heat-free, grinding can be.

............

Eric,

You say you had the guide clamped in (like the hand held grinding clamps from Mudhole), right? I'm going to lay out a thought. The heat was surely a contributor, but a constant torque on the guide foot would rip the foot right from the ring once it was hot. Since you were holding it in a clamp you may not have noticed the torque generated until the leg was gone.

I use a dremmel tool loaded with a diamond sanding drum. It is about 3/4" in diameter and about that long. It works great on all guide feet that I've used. It removes material is very small pieces. Plus the dremel is small so I can hold the guide and dremel pretty close to my eye and see what is going on and where I am grinding. No, I don't wear safety glasses and yes I have gotten stuff in my eye. That's just the stubborness in me though. The glasses are right enxt to me when I do it.

Another thought too. Crank up the RPM's and use less pressure. Pressure generates heat moreso than speed. You see the same thing when you shape grips. Go faster and take smaller bites.

Thanks,
Rick

I will bet that Tom is right about a good grinding wheel.
If particles of the grinding wheel sluff off during the grinding then much of the heat, probably about 50%, will be carried away by the particles that sluff off.
I will also bet that if the guide is held with something that will conduct away most of the heat it will solve the problem. Heat conducts well through most metals so I would just try a small pair of pliers.

"Friction Party", that concept brings all sorts of things to mind.

This is a repeat because I failed to use my full first name and expect Tom to quite rightly remove it for cause.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Consider stress fracturing. The vibrations created by grinding create a response by propogating stress risers at the attachement point. Issue with tich would be it's hardness. Any material used for attachent will certainly be softer, and expect a different ratio of heat expansion. Heat expansion cause a binding effect, and the vibrations insure that the tiniest molecular level scratch runs through the binding metal.

My experience is as an applied scientist studying crack creation and propgation in engine parts, like crank shafts with mucho thin and thin journals ending up with cracks running through to parting, all motivated by harmonics in operation.

The heat creates binding at the joint. Stress risers result, and are motivated by vibrations into a fast moving crack through the weld metal. Sounds like a cool, slow running stone could eliminate the heat. Vibration harmonics will be different with every type of stone or disc setup. Lower rpm would tend to have lower (longer wave length) harmonics far less likely to wake up and push a crack through the dancing of atoms in the matrix.

Tim... Thanks for the response. Just to be clear...these guides are not welded.

They are stamped (or cut... who knows) one-piece frames of solid titanium alloy. As far as I know, they are somehow bent and set to their shape.

Would your theory about harmonics play out in this case as well... with the "weak link" being the area that has seen the most stress during processing... such as the thin junction between the guide ring and the strut?

Erik

The frames are stamped, and then folded/bent into shape. Titanium and related alloys are somewhat difficult to work with and you may be up against something that happened on Fuji's end. I've used a ton of those guides but never had happen what you've just experienced.

I don't know very much about metalurgy. Wish I did. I can only suspect that the alloy may not have been exactly what they've used in the past and/or the stamping/bending operation resulted in stress or cracking that your subsequent grinding/heating operation exacerbated. I think I might contact Fuji directly and explain the problem to them. I'm sure they appreciate such comments as it helps them with their quality control.

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There is absolutely no question about what caused the failure. The weld/braze joint between the ring frame and the foot was bad. Examine the failed joint with a high power magnifying glass, and you will most likely see crystalization, which would confirm a bad braze/weld joint.
Another remote possibility is that the guides were not stress relieved after the welding/brazing operation.

If these guides were made out of Commercially Pure (CP) Titanium, then they were most likely welded via some proprietary technique, which requires an oxygen/nitrogen free environment. If the Titanium was an alloy, then they were possibly brazed. In any case, joining Titanium require considerable care to achieve production consistency.

From the number of failures mentioned on this post alone, it is reasonable to assume that Fuji has a quality control problem, and should be notified, as suggested by Tom Kirkman.

John Mantele (aka: @#$%&)

John,

These frames have no welds - they're one piece stampings.

............

ti has to be heated to be formed, if not done correctly it will crystalize and fracture. there seems to be a QC/process problem at fuji's end and they should be informed so they can respond.

Note - I have a white wheel, not a grey one.

When I ge thome I will post a picture of teh guide on teh Photo Page to see if the other 2 guys who had this happen to them experianced the exact same "failure".

I posted a photo of my two fractured guides on the photo page...

Erik (aka kzreelrods)

From the bayou boy! The failure mechanism referred to in the above post, by the applied scientist, is called "fretting corrosion". It is quite common in automotive parts that are hauled over rail. The harmonic vibration is caused by the wheels on the rail car running over joints in the track sending shock waves harmonically through metallic parts. Believe it or not it can cause things to bust.

The failure noted in the titanium guides is notable due to the failure of the same part in similar circumstances by a number of users. I have had two of those guides break and chalked it up to poor workmanship on my part. If the structural design measurments are correct and the parts are stamped within tolerance a series of events starting with cold working the part in the stamping process is contributing to failure. The most common chemical which causes cracking of titanium is the fluoride ion and I do not believe we use too much HF acid in the process of rodbuilding. We all need to cry foul and raise the dickens with Fuji to try to get some action.

I find it strange that I have never seen a post on this board from Fuji answering a number of questions that have been presented by their customers - rodbuilders spend a lot of money with them. Maybe Anglers Resource and get them to pipe up and defend their turf. Maybe they will take the stage at one of the sessions in Charlotte.

A Fuji Product User.

Gon Fishn

When I was working in weapons development, there was a lot of stuff being done with titanium in several areas. It is tough as nails, but extremely hard to form and/or machine with a high level of quality. People are still learning how to work with this stuff.

One of the biggest problems with it is stress fractures. It's not very elastic at all, which is part of why it is so strong. Because of this, stress fractures can occur fairly easily if it isn't worked correctly. Many extremely skilled people I knew who worked with it likened it to diamond cutting. Do it right and it will last forever. Do it wrong and it can be as fragile as glass.