John Basically said what I was now going to, in response to Felix.
# years or # rods would not necessarily proclaim one to be an expert.
I can build 200 ice fishing rods of excellent custom quality in a matter of weeks. Over years I may have built hundreds of custom rods of various types. Let's subtract the ice rods, and still that accounts for several hundred rods of 'experience'. My customers tell me they love the rods, and have the feel, appearance and all that is wanted in a custom rod. I still consider myself an 'average' or slightly 'above average' cutom rodbuilder. Others may judge it better, a few may judge thiers as better. I really don't care about that. If one tells me they judge themselves better because they have built more completed rods, it may or may not mean a thing for comparison. I know builders that may build hundreds of rods, but not care the least to be 'judged'. Also there are some builder who have produced thousands of what maybe considered sub standard custom rods. They are 'experienced', but would the rods meet a criteria of 'certification' by any organization. Question is whether these builders would necessarily have any need for the 'certification' to begin with. Whether their 'customers' judge the rods by giving opinion to others is again of little consideration about what certification is to be according to a skills level achievement process.

It's really of little interest personally to get involved deeply with a process that an organization may wish to undertake regarding the notion of certification. It likely would be cumbersome, cause for overall grief in getting rodbuilders to agree on the process itself, and would require definitions that again would result in dissention. I think it's a long ways off, but perhaps some brave souls already have the answers and will attempt to convince us that it could be a good idea.

I would agree with Tom on an important point. To seek from the experience of already established organizations and how they become successful at this. Not to say that modifications for rodbuilders would apply, but as John also points out the regional attitudes or personal 'preferences' could cause for a lot of interference for bias towards what should be a fair process of recognizing simply skill levels of achievement.

Rich

There will always be desention and difference of opinions, there will always be the thought of its to much of an effort, but the bottom line is like all businesses to get more for your work, to get more work, to make a profit.

What applies in one industry may not apply in another but the basic concept is the same, learn and gain from it.

There are organizations like Rod Crafters maybe they can be the ones to do this. But Like I said its my opinion have seen it work successfully in other areas.

As much as I have enjoyed this thread I must agree with those who say " let the customer be the judge". As a credentialled professional who is "certified" in my industry I must make these points. Unlike Sanfords situation where licensing becomes an issue, any certifification, if not mandated by a government body, really has little impact in the overall scheme of things. It does give you a marketing advantage up front - being able to say " I'm a certified rod builder by XYZ association". That may get you an initial sale but if you build a shoddy product you won't get another from that customer. My industry is rife with certified people who could'nt find their way out of a wet paper bag. Fortunately they go as quickly as they come. Those with the knowledge, skill and expertise are the ones who stand the test of time. In rodbuilding, like in any business - REPUTATION IS EVERYTHING! If you build a nice rod and sell it to someone and they love it so much that they buy more from you and recommend you to their friends your doing it right. If you spend tons of money advertising and trod from one customer to another with little repeat business your doing it wrong. The market is a cruel and unforgiving place. But there are always those with no skill (and no scruples) who will always make money at it while damaging the industry as a whole. Fact of life. I'm an amatuer rod builder. I only sell a rare few. But if ever went into the rodbuilding business certification would have no impact on my business - only the satisfied customer.

Just responding to Felix, and I respect your ideas toward certification ideas. Only points to make about what you might be suggesting that it's necessary to have schools, develop beaurocracy, judging contests and so on. This also can lead to failure (or success??), as beaurocracies develop to achieve something of recognition for the organizers more than the participants. What do I mean? Well, programs CAN be developed with organizations already existing for custom rod builders. To go the route of 'official' development through a sort of educatiotional or shool university curriculum may doom the craft to failure. Community colleges may present a proper forum perhaps for those 'expert' rodbuilders who would wish to participate on behalf of the rod building craft or organizations. Rod Building is not necessarily a 'profession' as one would think of being a doctor or dentist. It's more akin to a usable craft, as is crafting archery, golf clubs, custom tennis rackets, custom knives. The 'professional' aspect as Mike alluded to is more to do whether one develops his craft into a business atmosphere like is recognized a professiona lathlete compare to one with amateur (non-paying) status. This aspect has nothing to do with wheter one is certified to be recognized of achieving skills toward the craft. (you could still be recognized a 'master' or whatever level, and not sell a single rod!).

There already are rodbuilding gatherings as Felix suggests for 'meets'. This likely has room for increasing regionally. Whether this has to be with an atmosphere of being 'scholarly' or 'elitist' is something decided by local popularity. Also, this has little to do with any sort of certifying process. Developing beurocracy is not the ticket, in my opinion. Rod Builders seem to prefer an idea breeding commeraderie and purpose for certification that could lead to their satisfaction, whether it be with better marketing or satisfaction of aquiring skills and the recognition that would come from that.

The idea of 'contests' can be a worthy consideration, but again can lead to problems if the notion leads to who is 'better' at it than anyone else. This is not to say that a lending hand is there to mentor individuals to achieve skills of the craft to encourage and enhance those who wish to have thier skills in custom rodbuilding achieved.

The craft does lead to certain didactic learning to be sure, as for basic skills to learn. Some may learn a lot on their own, but will like access to a mentor or expert guidance. I just think there is much more to it on the basis of a craft and activity with involvement and participation that an organization can offer besides dwelling on a certification process. That could come, but it probably is best to be developed by the craftsmen and those dedicated to custom rodbuilding, rather than an administrative beurocracy that could have other agendas.

In the past, I've joined what was perceived a 'dedicated' tennis club as wanting to participate as a player and was fooled into being with a beurocratic social club gathering more to expouse the virtues of balsamic vinegar or some such silly notion that had nothing to do with the interest at hand (tennis in this case). This was in an 'intelluctual' setting of a campus learning grounds. Not that I'm knocking the value of the community college setting for teaching a rod building class, for instance. But the process for defining what rodbuilders care to pursue is with the people doing the activity itself.

Rich

The customer will still the be final judge and no such program as discussed here will change that. Many trades and craftmans guild have these programs not to judge or elevate one person over another, but to provide a means for those involved in the craft to improve, grow and prosper in their work. Far too many people simply have the wrong idea about what we are discussing. It is not a contest and it is not something that gets "judged" so to speak. Those who have been involved in similar programs know that it has merit (reference to Felix's comments and my own experience).

With one possible exception in this thread, I don't think any of use are going to institute such a program so we are really just spending time discussing something that none of us are in a position to create.

.....................

Which brings us back to the main point in your post Tom, to learn, grow, improve our skills and prosper. And to date I have not found a better place than rodbuilding.org! Thanks.

My opinion on this is that no matter the title, certificate or label, for me the bottom line is "quality of the work". My life experience has proven to me time and again that paper titles are less important than the substance of the holder of that title. My formal education stopped at high school but I have had those with advanced degrees working for me. Their "paper titles" were not substantiated by the quality of their abilities. Now I am not bashing advanced degrees in anything since they do have their place and I respect those who earn them and can justify having them. I am only stating that having the degree is no guarantee their work is similarly rated. Again, it has been my life experience that when some (not all) have received the "degree, title, or whatever" they stop learning because the goal has been reached. When I go to any craftsman I want to see their work not the certificates or titles telling me how great they are. I want to see how their work has evolved along with their experience. I want to see smiling customers leaving their shops. I don't want to see a line of customers at the return counter. I believe the true craftsman is more concerned with producing their best then bragging how good they are.

For me, I place greater importance and credibility in a person by their handshake, their word, and their work than any paper title they may display.

If I ruffled any feathers I apologize but this is my opinion on this thread.

Franz, I couldn't disagree with you on that point about customer satisfaction. It is probably obvious that 'quality of work' would be difficult for a rodbuilder to have 'judged' by others in the craft.

You also have to realize one point about rodbuilders not having customers (there are lots who do build rods for their own satisfaction) in liking recognition and pursuing excellence.

How many times can it be said that the point is ultimately for improvement of skills and helping to make it better in the work of what you do in your craft, and this can be done at many levels already.
You may even have opportunity to show your skill level to another rodbuilder through some form of mentoring. Just another type of 'certification'. But it is more difficult to measure.

A lot of this boils down to individualism amongst craftsmen, and that may be fine. If I know anything about custom rodbuilders, is that they do not care for the label of being 'rubber stamped'.
Another thing is most rodbuilders are anglers of one sort or another. This fact alone will say that only I and you , and the divine, are correct in ascribing opinion on what is correct. LOL.

Rich

The point is still being overlooked. Colleges and trade schools and organizations still serve a valuable purpose even though we may put credibility in a handshake or person's word. These are really two different things and what is being discussed here is also two different things.

Sorry I don't have neither mindset nor vocabulary to sufficiently explain the differences.

No feathers have been ruffled. The civility of the discussion only prove the friendliness and sincerity of those who use this board.

......................

Hopefully my last comment, I believe at least part of the problem lies in the fact that other organizations and Guilds have had years of experience to guide them in setting up criteria, which if an item is to be judged must be in place. Secondary if the idea of advanced certification had been or should be introduced not as an advancement but rather as an educational tool to be utilized, there would be far less opposition. Picture this a new group wants to develop a program leading to advanced degrees do you just announce “We will have an advance Certification Program” or do you announce that in our efforts to improve the well being of rodbuilding as well as giving to our membership the opportunity to advance their own skills a program where such skills will be taught and as an added incentive upon completion of such course and passing of an examination by their piers the examinee will be awarded the title of.XXXX . It is imperative that the focus be on educating those who perhaps have not acquired some of the skills needed to build better rods.
My last 2 cents
John

John --- that sounds exactly like what is being proposed here. I don't know where the notion of a contest or judging type thing came from.

Hi,

The internet is responsible for a tremendous increase of data at everyones disposal. This has certainly led to the great new interest in custom rod building.

For whatever reason a vast amount of new rod builders exist. They want answers.

I think what is needed is a set of "how to videos", on rod construction. These need the correct info, clear and up close demos, and done by professionals both in front of and behind the camera.

Unfortunately, I feel too many would not be willing to pay the price to gain the knowledge this set of videos would offer.

Sometimes I fail to realize that many potential builders live in areas not densely populated. They do not have tackle shops every 5 miles or so. Nor another rod builder to visit.

A certificate does not bring in customers. It might be nice to have for some. Thats okay.

Why would builders with successful shops be interested in certificates? What would be the advantage for them?

I can see benefit for people trying to get started.

Besides Rod Crafters Journal and Rod Maker Magazine, Seminars and Conclaves are fantastic avenues to gain knowledge and have your work appraised by fellos rod builders.

Capt Neil

A lot of this thread has emphasized the professional rodbuilder - however, I think there is a place for judging and teaching the amateur rodbuilder. When my kids started playing AYSO soccer, I started to referee, even though I didn't know anything about soccer - I just want to participate and help this very excellent program. AYSO provides beginning refereeing classes, and encourages improvement of skills by offering a series of advanced classes (with perks such as special badges and shirts for moving to advanced levels), mentoring, and grading of your refereeing skills. All this has made my kid's soccer years more enjoyable for themselves and for me - I even think I am a halfway decent referee - although many parents may disagree. In rodbuilding, there is not that clear path to improvement. You can find beginning rodbuilding classes, but no intermediate or advanced classes. Both the amateur and professional are left to strive on their own to improve, unless they can find a mentor somewhere. I think it would help if there were classes and a reasonable grading system that would allow a person to progress with a definite understanding of their present capabilities and what they need to do to improve.

Hi Jeff,

I think much has to do where you live. If you live near popular fishing areas you will find many builders and some willing to help. If you live out in the desert, well, that gonna be difficult.

This is why I feel a set of videos would be benefitial. The production cost would be too great for the return I feel. But who knows.

I have heard of lessens being given on Cape Cod and Central Florida. I think they had lessens at Rochester Community College in New York. Oh, I have read of lessens being given in California. A Seminar was given recently in Minnesota, hope I have the correct State Buzz. Several tackle shops on Long Island, NY give lessons sfter the holidays.

Recently I was part of a 1 day Seminar hosted by Al Goldberg on Long Island. We had 8 RodCrafters volunteer as speakers and demonstrators. 44 gentlemen showed up and had a fantastic experience. The proceeds went to local fishing programs.

Seeing a task done is worth a thousand words. Make every effort to get to a RodCrafter Seminar or Rod Guild Conclave. The information gained, demos witnessed and contacts made are priceless. You should come away with a rod building network, names, business cards, telephone #'s etc. However, you have to participate. you can't sit there and expect everyone to cater to you. Jeff, "you" is generic and and directed to you personally.

HELP is out there but I am afraid too many people are unwilling to extend themselves.

Yes, I think a Program of Certification would be helpful for newer entries.

If one visits these rod building web sites, help is an email away. Establish email contact which will lead to phone contact and you will have fantastic help available.

Capt Neil

My profession has licensing requirements and education programs to help one keep up to date as well as prevent your license from being revoked. My profession also has groups that you can join and become certified as having a particular skill level. My profession also has groups that you can join only by invitation, based on those groups perception of your abilities and skills. All of these have some value to some people. All of them offer education programs to help their members keep up to date. None of them can guarantee to the public that their members will be competent or serve the public's needs.

As far as rodbuilding is concerned, like my profession, the "professionals" need some form of association that will enable the professionals to learn and grow in their abilities and knowledge. Certification programs are a necessity for my profession, but conscientious members of my profession desire to maintain and develop their skills and would do so even if if there were no certification program; and they also desire to associate with others of like mind and purpose. And this surely must be true for professional rodbuilders, also.

But how to accomplish this, can be difficult when the professionals are scattered and relatively few in number. The internet is changing this more rapidly then we imagine. I would think that this board serves the need of conscientious professionals to some extent - but it is particularly helpful to us amateurs because the professionals share their knowledge willingly. I would also think that, because this board is civilized, professionals will use it to ask questions and receive the benefit of the thinking of other professionals, without feeling less-than-professional ( because they have questions) and without risking being put-down or criticized in public. But I can understand that rodbuilding professionals might like to have an organization, even an internet-based organization, where they can communicate with one another without the rest of us "listening in".
Pete Cross

I had an experience this weekend which parallels this thread. We had one of our annual sportfishing shows here in Detroit this past weekend. There were three custom rod builders selling their wares at the show. Now I'm an amatuer rod builder. I don't pretend to know everything about the craft but I am a learning, reading junkie. I read this board every day and of course subscribe to the best publication out there - Rodmaker. I build all my rods (bass) utilizing the best components avialable utilizing all the latest techniques. Well I need to tell you I was not impressed with the fare for sale at these shows. Not that they were not well build rods. It was the technology and components. Two were stating that they make their own blanks and were the best in the world. NONE were built with the new concept guide system. Most we not utilizing Fuji seats or guides. One went so far as to tell me the guides were Fuji SIC's made specifically for him by Fuji yet Fuji was nowhere to be found anywhere and looked like a set of hardaloys to me. Most of the casting rods were doublefoots all the way down. In reality these rods were built to be durable. Not a problem with that as of course all offered unconditional lifetime warranties. I guess what got me was the sales pitch buy these builders. Most of it was @#$%& in the highest degree. Granted most people don't know squat about rods and rodbuilding. One went so far, when questioned about the Concept system, to tell me he did not use it because if was flawed. That casting distance was greatly hampered by line splap. So obviously he chose to use high frame doublefooted guides! Actually his rods were like sticks! So does some kind of certification play a role if the person selling them is not straighforward?