This thing about craftsmanship levels continues to get my goat. I fought this subject with the 'Guild' leadership a lot longer than I had planned to and then just gave up.

First, let us for a moment differentiate between amatuer and professional rod builders. For these purposes just assume that somebody that builds rods for free are amatuers and those that build rods for profit are professionals. Same as it is in the sports world. The two classifications have nothing to do with skill, just the financial and legal entity aspects.

Now that that's out of the way, let us discuss craftsmanship in the following scenario:

You are associated with a group of people that build rods. To be a 'certified' member you have to submit a test rod kit consisting of a piece of blank, a seat, a grip, a guide and a written test. You put the pieces together to form a lower part of a rod. You then have to describe how you built it on the written test. You put it all back in the tube and send it in. Assuming that you have the parts in the right places, Poof, you are now a 'certified' rod builder and are sent a certificate or something indicating so.
Now, imagine you are a customer and walk into a store or house or where ever and you see the certification on the wall. You then look at the rods the builder has on hand and they honest to goodness look like Fido's rear end. You say to yourself, "SELF, do all of the 'certified' rod builder's rods look this bad?"
The next place you go to has the SAME certification on the wall but these rods look most excellent. You ask yourself "SELF, how could these rods look so much better than the last place I went to and the same certification is given to both people?"

Now let's take a different approach in this scenario:

You are a member of a group of people that build rods. This group is interested in advancing the craft of rod building and is also interested in rewarding the members with levels of craftsmanship based on a pre-determined set of guidelines compiled by a judging committee.
There is one person in (or outside the group) the group that assigns the member a number that he and he only knows. We assume here that this person is trustworthy. The member is sent a full rod kit, blank, guides, the whole nine yards. The kit is a generic kit, which by determination of a judging committee, encompasses work that could be expected in a variety of rod types.
The only instructions that are given to the member are to build the rod however they wish but you are not allowed to put any logos on the rod or sign it. You build the rod to the best of your abilities.
You send the rod in to the person that gave you the number. That person removes the rod from the tube, applies the number, thus eliminating any chance that the judging committee knows who the member is. This way, they are judging the rod ONLY, not the person building the rod which takes away any prejudices the judges may have towards the builder. The committee can do anything they wish to the rod during their judging. Tear it apart to see hidden work, etc.
The committee judges the rod, issues a craftsmanship level, and forwards it to the number person for award to the builder. The judging would be done at intervals throughout the year as it may be difficult to get the judges together all the time.

Back to being a customer:

You walk into a store and see a 'master rod builder' certification on the wall, the rods look excellent. The next place you go to has the same certification and the rods look excellent. Now you say to yourself, "SELF, a 'master rod builder' certification must really mean that this builder has accomplished something in the craft and I think that I will buy from anyone with that certification.


Now folks, you decide if it would be in your favor as a professional builder to have a certification level on the wall to increase your business. Or, if you are an amatuer, how proud you would be to have your friends see that you have been recognized by your peers as reaching a goal.

You decide! I made up my mind several years ago. I don't care if other crafts have levels, makes no difference. What does make a difference is that it can be done if people want it to be done.


Off my soap box.

Mike
First, I sympathize with a lot of what is said if I understand your points.
To clarify some things in regards to graphite or fiberglass custom rod builders. There is no organization bestowing that one is "A Certified RodBuilder". Anyone can bestow that title upon themselves.

Having said this, there is the organization called the Custom Rod Builders Guild which DOES give a certificate to those submitting a basic project and passing it according to a person on a certifying committee or group (or individual pehaps) that the craftsman now would be a "Guild Certified Custom Rod Builder". Whether this has meaning to you or anyone else can mean as much or as little for the time being. It is a nice certificate, and states that the person completing the project has done so by showing skills necessary to build a custom rod. This is basic certification by this organization.
It may have a lot more meaning in the future, and as the organization advances, may perhaps include advanced levels of certification. That , as yet remains to be determined. Also, what would constitute achieving that designation would remain to be seen.

Without getting carried away, I have personal feelings on this, as do many other rodbuilders.
A basic approach to recognizing skills achieved is fairly simple to establish really. Other craft or guild organizations do something like having levels of achievement for a particular skill of the craft broken down in some fashion.
Say, you have achieved a skill in guide wrapping. This is something you either have achieved, or not achieved. As simple as that. Put all skills together as defined what caterory of 'advancement' that an organization may bestow, and then it can designate a specific title such as 'professional rodbuilder' , 'master rodbuilder' or whatever.

In other words, a collection of skills achieved would define what level of mastery one has with the craft. Get good at many skills, and you are a good custom rodbuilder. Small error at this point with semantics though. One is not judged 'good' or 'bad' with achieving a particular skill. It is simply a skill achieved or NOT achieved. And this can apply to just about any point of skill development you can think of.
For example, a buttwrap pattern> this even can be broken down for levels of complexity and skill achievement from doing a pattern simple on one axis, or doing it with multiple axis'. The skill is achieved and recognized (maybe by collecting points for a skill) and then if you wish to be recognized as achieving the skill for multiple axis wraps, that is another level of skill . Achieved or not achieved. Collection of achievements would define the level of 'certification'.

Sounds complex, but things can be broken down to reality.

my opinion

Rich
Solyrich Custom Rods

In most trades where members are expected to pass certain tests or levels their work is not judged. They are given tasks to perform and if they prove competence in that area then they are certified as being competent in that area. This could be applied to some tasks in rod building.

You've obviously put a lot of time and effort into thinking about this. Maybe it is something you might consider gathering interest on and then setting up such a program.

I can appreciate what you are saying but am not sure there is really any great demand for such a program and if there was who would be recognized as having the authority to do it? I'd like to think that my customers can look at my sample rods and judge for themselves the quality of what I am doing. That's just my take and others may feel differently.

Mike,
Your argument is reflected in all crafts and professions. What constitutes quality, and how is it inferior work passed the test? Well, in my profession, a dentist has to pass not only national, but state boards. The state boards reflect his competence. Here's the hitch. The standard has a broad range. One person can pass by a small margin, showing minimal skills, and the person who shines gets the same permission to practice. In my class, there was a student who's grades were barely passing, but his hands were magic. He sculpted and carved like Michaelangelo. All I cared about were his skills. The head of the class had so-so hands. They both earned their degree and crtificates to practice. The bottom line is, observe the work, look at it closely, and make comparisons. If one looks and feels superior, pay for it. You'll be happy you did. Certificates are not the final arbiter.
Sanford

That is quite true of many professions. But I think the point for such exams and testing procedures is not to see who is the best, but whether a person so certified can meet the MINIMUM technical standards of the profession or individual task.

The Association of Custom Rod Builders is moving past the planning stage and we are proposing to have two levels of memberships. One for those who wish to simply belong to the organization and another for those who wish to actively participate in improving their skills through both a certification process and a protege/mentor program. The later would only be able to gain membership in that catagory by submitting a sample of their work which would be judged for technical competence. If they pass, they would be admitted as a 'Fellow' and would then be able to continue to higher levels as they passed various technical competency exams.

This is only one of the programs we have planned and are moving ahead with. There are a few more things to put into place and then we can get underway. We would prefer to have all our programs in place and ready to go when we announce rather than adding them as we go along. This will take us a bit longer to get up and running but believe it will give those interested a more reasonable idea of what the organization will be all about from the very start.

Rodbuilding is such an individualized craft that it is difficult for me to see the reason for or how a true "certification" would work. One "expert's" idea of what is correct might not coincide with another's of equally expert abilities. My question is: Who judges the judges? Is it just a mutual admiration society or have they all determined that they passed the test?

While at the Custom Rodbuilder's Guild Conclave in January I heard "expert" rodbuilders explaining to other "expert" rodbuilders why another "expert" rodbuilder's methods just presented a seminar were all wrong. Just read the postings in this website; rarely is there a majority opinion on correct techniques or layout.

All I'm saying is that the customer is the ultimate judge and jury and his repeat and referral business is his verdict. That is the only judgement that is needed or that matters.

There are some things which are absolute. A rod that has been assembled with Elmer's white glue does not meet the accepted standards which would be set by any reputable rod building organization. A rod which is 7 feet in length and has been outfitted with 3 guides would also not meet those same standards. A rod with guides that are not even close to being aligned would be a problem as well.

We are not talking about style or method, we are talking about sound construction and assembly principles. Just as your local municipality has building codes that must be met, an organization can do the same. In fact, most trades have such standards and requirements already in place. We are not talking about anything really new here. Just the first time rod builders have had such a thing offered to them.

As always, it will not be for everyone. It is up to the organization to decide and set what the standards will be and those who wish to participate are welcome to do so. Those who do not can continue to practice their craft in the way they see fit.

Dick,
To a great extent you are correct about the customer being the final judge for buying a crafted rod, just as they could be in picking another crafted item, like say a custom made knife, quilt, custom built firearm, bow, or whatever.

The notion of setting up a professional body to estabish a certification process certainly can be done, and with the blessing of some (or many?) rodbuilders. Who's really to say until the numbers come in for membership of the certifying group? The guild at the moment is focused on other programs and interest for members, but a discussion seems to come up from time to time about 'advanced certification' and how to approach it. Perhaps ACRB already has the answers. I don't know?
Certification ideas may be pie in the sky for such a group of 'individualists', as mentioned, or it may be that a great many want a sort of standardization for the public perception or in the interest of advancing the craft at certain levels?

The ultimate point again is not a judgement contest. That is the big stumbling block from what I can see with current discussions. The fairness is like in a trade or guild craft where there is simply a recognition factor that a skill is achieved or not achieved. It's not a 'good' or 'bad' thing. Either you can achieve a skill, or you can't. It's that simple. From that point is the tabulation of what number of skills are achieved and then recognition by category what the title is to be, if it IS to be.

Here's another example. A customer might judge a particluar wrap as 'expert'. It may be, or it may not be according to peers who evaluate that a skill level of thread tightness, pattern alignment, finish application, and so on. These things certainly can be found acceptable or non acceptable. Whether a customer buys the rod or not has little to do with it. Maybe a rodbuilder prefers to attain a level of skills and 'certification', yet never want to sell a rod to any customer. The point here is that a skill is achieved for the satisfaction of the rodbuilder. If that satisfaction is manifest toward pride in a rod to sell for a customer, then all that customer knows is that the skill of the rodbuilder is 'certifiable' by the attainment of that skill.

Bob Meiser has an excellent and common sense approach to explaining this. Hopefully he would weigh in on this.

Rich
Solyrich Custom Rods.

Every one here has imprtant and legitmate imput on what it takes to make a certified custom or Master rod builder.
Now my question is how do you clasifie a person who has never built a glass or graphite rod? But has built from scratch many split bamboo rods that sells well above any graphite or glass rod. What type of craftsman is he.
Bob

Just thinking. You take your car to an ASE Certified Mechanic thinking your getting the best in automotive maintenance. But in truth, just because the person has the certification doesn't mean he's the most skilled. Skill is derived from desire. In rodbuilding, some are better than others because they try harder, not because they know more. There are a basic set of skills involved, but after that.......

Ray Alston

Bob,

I would think it would be the proficiency of the work performed, and not the medium that it is performed upon, that would count.
................


I have no interest in such a program personally, but know that some do. Other organizations and guild type groups have already put such programs into place and they work well. I am a big believer in using somebody else's path if that path is a good and proven one. Why repeat somebody else's mistakes and efforts? Better to build upon the best that is already out there. Other's have already done the work for you.

It would have been much easier for me to buy RodMaker from somebody else who already had it up and running than to start from scratch. I didn't have that option. Those who want such a program as described here do have that option and they don't even have to pay for it.

.....................

Thoughts on advanced certification:
Before any rod can be judged a specific set of criteria must be in place, once established you have a base line to determine the qualification level. If I understand Tom Ks idea with a points system, so many points awarded for specific task it makes evaluating the work considerably easier.
I think at least in part where the problems lie is the specific titles to be awarded, throughout the rodbuilding groups there are far more individuals that tend to develop their skills towards certain types or styles of rods as apposed to general rodbuilding, if one is to be considered a “Master Builder” they must meet the criteria established, I would think most would agree that a true craftsman or expert cane rod builder would be very close to a master builder title considering the number of skills involved but do they have or even want to go to the next step of certification, many might move on both as an educational exercise and the desire to receive their piers recognition, while others might feel they have already reached the pinnacle of their chosen field.
One problem on judging is the committee who have this task would of necessity need to be located in the same geographical area, considering the scope of rodbuilding in the world not just the US it would be impractical to expect a group to meet once or twice a year to determine certification levels, I would hope that far to many rods would be received to adequately judge the submissions over a weekend meeting, it might entail have committees formed in various places to be the judges, as Mike has stated there well may be a need to disassemble a rod to check for specific skills and doing so would make it difficult to forward the rod to a different committee member to check on other skills, not to mention the cost in doing so.

Another foreseeable problem comes about by the simple fact that unlike some other organizations there is no one governing body, any group formed can set their own specifications for advanced certification, there are a few world title holders already proclaiming to be the best. I would think it would behoove any organizations thinking about an advance certification test to establish one set of criteria for all.
Split organizations-It seems to be a trend within organizations to split the Professional and the Hobbiest either of which could be a Master craftsman, even in groups with no specific designations there tends to be such a split, in and of itself this isn’t bad but said organizations must not allow one group to attempt to dominate the other. This being said it must be made completely clear that awarding a title to any individual does not bestow some special significance to that individual aside from the fact that their piers have determined that they achieved a certain level of competence. The recipient should act as a mentor or example to others who may wish to advance, unfortunately personalities come into play and there are already far too many with some very large egos that could cause problems.
The Guild is attempting to set up criteria for judging and I would hope they are wise enough to accept and seek out some of Tom’s ideas. The problems are not unsolvable but should be taken into consideration before an organization attempts to institute a formal certification procedure, other problems may arise but with the right people on the certification committees these to should be solved, what may end up being the key is does the membership really want advanced certification, and it would benefit those who do, to make positive statements as to the advantage of having it not detract from statements of those who do not.
John

I can only input my opinion based upon the field of work I am in. First thing I like to say I been making rods for over 20 years so has a friend of mine lets call him X. That in it's self can be impressive to a customer. The difference is my firend has made over 500 rods in his 20 years and I have maybe made 40 and most of mine were for myself or family and friends. The line is drawn. He is a professional and I am still an amatuer. The difference in volume of rods does bring a degree of experience.

Back to my point I am in the pro photography industry. I worked with pro photographers through pro labs and a phtot manufacturer. In the pro photography industry there are many trade organizations, I like to focus on one known as the "Professional Photographers Association" PPA. This organization mostly focuses on the profession of Portrait/wedding photographer, known today as professional social photographers.

This organization has a great certification program and is recorgnized by the industry as a sign of professionalism. Even the prospective customer can validate the certification of the photographer through the agencies HQ regionally or nationally. Its just not a paper in a frame on the wall. Iin some cases it can be validated through some consumer agencies and publicatrions.

To attain this certification the organization rquires a set of qualifications acquired through attending classes, lectures, seminars, home study and many test, setting a history of knowledge base. The applicant also has to have a required amount of lectures he or she has to give to aquire his or her's certifcation. Last but not least the applicant show case his work in print judging events where he or she or given scores. This competition is judge along other applicants thus making it competitive (real life in business) and at times can be harsh but always makes room for improvement on one's skills. Now this organization has been in exsistence for 70 plus years and the level of professionalism in this industry is high.

There is a national organization as well as many regional and state affiliates that makes it work on a local level. It may be a large undertaking but I think with the exsisting organizations in this busines it can be formed in a smaller scale, but I can't stress enough the need for local chapters tied into a main organization (makes life so much easier to form a profesionalism in this industry.

Sponsers benefit from this as they will attain more business and watch the industry grow.

Just my opinion.

I can only input my opinion based upon the field of work I am in. First thing I like to say I been making rods for over 20 years so has a friend of mine lets call him X. That in it's self can be impressive to a customer. The difference is my firend has made over 500 rods in his 20 years and I have maybe made 40 and most of mine were for myself or family and friends. The line is drawn. He is a professional and I am still an amatuer. The difference in volume of rods does bring a degree of experience.

Back to my point I am in the pro photography industry. I worked with pro photographers through pro labs and a phtot manufacturer. In the pro photography industry there are many trade organizations, I like to focus on one known as the "Professional Photographers Association" PPA. This organization mostly focuses on the profession of Portrait/wedding photographer, known today as professional social photographers.

This organization has a great certification program and is recorgnized by the industry as a sign of professionalism. Even the prospective customer can validate the certification of the photographer through the agencies HQ regionally or nationally. Its just not a paper in a frame on the wall. Iin some cases it can be validated through some consumer agencies and publicatrions.

To attain this certification the organization rquires a set of qualifications acquired through attending classes, lectures, seminars, home study and many test, setting a history of knowledge base. The applicant also has to have a required amount of lectures he or she has to give to aquire his or her's certifcation. Last but not least the applicant show case his work in print judging events where he or she or given scores. This competition is judge along other applicants thus making it competitive (real life in business) and at times can be harsh but always makes room for improvement on one's skills. Now this organization has been in exsistence for 70 plus years and the level of professionalism in this industry is high.

There is a national organization as well as many regional and state affiliates that makes it work on a local level. It may be a large undertaking but I think with the exsisting organizations in this busines it can be formed in a smaller scale, but I can't stress enough the need for local chapters tied into a main organization (makes life so much easier to form a profesionalism in this industry.

Sponsers benefit from this as they will attain more business and watch the industry grow.

Just my opinion.

Felix,

Your experience proves the point some of us have been making - That such programs already exist and can work to the betterment of the craft and those who participate in it.

I doubt many rod builders would participate in such a program, but there is no doubt that some would. I have no idea why anyone would oppose such a program. If you don't like it or feel you don't need it, you don't participate.

................

Felix only one comment the fact that anyone builds a large number of rods does not equate to being a craftsman in any way shape or form, as you said it is the criteria established that enables one to judge not the number
John

Tom
To answer your question re opposition:
Some may feel that to belong to a group they would have to take part in the program, in this case educating the group as to the purpose is the answer
Second I think that some also feel it will develop into a my rods are better then your rods type of thing which could lead to conflicts within a group. I would call it by another name but there are censors.
John

John,

We sort of already have that even without any such program. I have a stack of various custom rod builder's brochures in one of my desk drawers. Most all have some statement about "the world's finest custom rods" or "unmatched quality and sensitivity" or "you cannot buy a better custom rod" or "here's why my rods are the finest". Competition already exists and is the normal part of the business world, even among rod builders.

Properly done, guild type programs do not foster competition or hard feelings among those who participate. What they do most of the time, is move the entire group or craft forward into a greater degree of knowledge and ability. These aren't unchartered waters - others have charted them for us.

Personally I can do without any such program. I guess I'm not an "organization" type of guy. But I'm sure if there is enough demand that somebody will come forward with such a program. When a product or service is demanded, somebody usually comes forward to provide it.

.........................

You are right John, I was trying to make a point that customers may equate years of experience to being a craftman. Thats why there is a need for a strong certification program, to eliminate preconceptions.

From my experience from PPA I found that being judge by piers is somewhat uncomfortable, but being judge by mentors and craftmens who are established can be a positive and constructive. Being told that your wrapping is uneven or has to many gaps makes room for improvement. The purpose here is to establish a standard and only those who are proficient in these standards can judge.

I respect those here who give advice on this board I recognize the level knowledge that you guys have I look foward to reading this board to improve my craft. With that said if there were an organization locally to me and others all over the country and the world, that would share this knowledge, lets say a bi-monthly meeting it would be even better. (and kudos for Tom who made this board possible).

There can be two levels of membership those who want to make and are making a living at rod buliding and those who want to make better and more ellegant rods for themselves. Lets face it those who make a living at it would want improvement and learn of new techniques to enhance there earnings. Its a win-win situation. Those who feel that it would create competition and want no part of it will lose out of the learning experience and enhancements (cutting edge technology) that become available.

Take a poll see how many would want to make there craft better and have the resource available like this idea. It can be done all that is needed is dedicated people, memebership fees, and sponsership and lots of hard work.

Tom I think you would benefit as a sponser as well as a member, an organization like this one that ties all of them together can only bring more to the craft, hence a sponser, a publisher gains with more sales and subscriptions. I agree there are organizations that exsist, maybe if they would join together in some sort of affiliation it can happen.

You brought us Rod Maker, you brought this board and look at the level of participation, 10% of the hits you get here as a memeberhsip is huge. I am a salesman and a craftman I can see enourmous potential in such an endeavor.

Ok salesman came out of me (lol) but my enthusiams is in the right place.