i have noticed that most all of my spinning guides are loose. i'm using fuji high frame single foots, and 2 thin coats of LS Supreme. The wraps have enough tension on them that you cannot inadvertanly move them during final placement. you have to mean to move them (they won't move at all if you accidentally brush them with your hand, or on a surface, but you don't have to grunt to line them up).

if you hold the rod vertically in the left hand, then grasp the center of the guide ring with your right, there is some horizontal "play" in the guides. not a lot, maybe 1/32", or 1/64", and it's worse on bigger guides, like 20's, 25's, and 30's.


1. Am I doing something wrong?
2. Is this a bad thing?
3. What can I do to prevent it, even if it's not a bad thing?

I tried adding a little more finish, and it helped, but not completely, plus I don't want to use anymore finish than necessary. I checked out another builder's rods, and his are the same, if not worse (but it was a rod that had been used extensively).

I just sold my first spinning rod, and the very first thing the customer did was wiggle the guide and say, "are the guides supposed to wiggle back and forth?" @#$%^&

Matt,

It sounds like you did not get any epoxy down the "tunnels" on each side of the foot. A little tunnel is formed by the thread wrap where it goes up and over the foot. You should make sure you get CP in there also. At this piont you can still save your wrap job, I would think. Check the alinement, make sure it's still straight. Mix up some Thread wrap epoxy you use, and feed it down into the tunnels with a toothpick. If you are careful in applying the epoxy, and keep the rod in an up right angle until dry, it should be OK. Next rod you do, fill the tunnels first (after CP is dry) then finish wraps like normal. Hope that helps.

Bill Doherty

Matt,

Almost forgot, make sure you fill the tunnels all the way up. Put some in each tunnel, work your way up the rod, go back to first guide you started on, by then the epoxy settled down into the bottom of the tunnel. Repet until they are filled. The bigger the guide foot, the bigger the tunnel, some will take more than others.

And, no you don't want the guides moving at all. If you take the time to fill them properly, they won't loosen up even after use, like the other guy's rod you mentioned.

Bill Doherty

i don't use cp (i only use black thread anyway), so should i just fill the tunnels before i put the rod in the dryer and apply normal finish?

sounds like it would be easier to get the finish in the tunnel with the rod vertical?

i'd say it's too late, i finish 1/4" past the ends of the wraps, so the tunnel "opening" is covered. should I re-wrap the rod?

thanks in advance!

Matt,

If you don't use CP, then that does not apply here. Yes, the rod should be almost verticle to put epoxy down the tunnels. I feel like if the rod is perfectly straight up, air has a harder time displacing out of the tunnel. About a 45 to 60 degree angle is around where I hold them. Depending on how thick or thin an epoxy you're using and if you use a motorized finisher to apply the epoxy onto the wraps, you may have to let the epoxy dry first in the tunnels before finishing the wraps. If the tunnels are small enough, I can fill them up and put it in my finisher and keep on going.

Now you've stumped me on the sealed up tunnel. I stop my epoxy wrap finish right at the edge of the wrap. You might be able to open them up with the piont of a #11 Exacto blade, but that will be hard to do. It depends how thick the "cap" of epoxy is over the tunnel's entrance. Maybe somebody else on the board has a trick to keep you from redoing the wraps. I can't think of an easy answer.

Bill Doherty

Matt,

One stupid question. The movement you talked about, is it the foot of each guide that's moving? If you don't use CP, maybe, just maybe, enough epoxy soaked through the thread, and you are just flexing the guide frame? Had to ask.

Bill Doherty

Give this a shot:

When a guide moves, generally, it will crack away the epoxy capping the "tunnel" When it does, shoot some Krazyglue (any brand name) down beside the foot.

I have done this a number of times, and it never fails to stop the movement. I have a couple that have remained solid for a couple of years now. Surprising, but it works!

Hope this helps.

TH

Did you put a bumper wrap in front of the guide???

My two cents.......I hate to contradict someone else's post but in my humble opinion the wraps need to be redone. Seems like they were too loose on the first wrap. I see trouble down the road using another coat to try and firm them up. A guide should be pretty hard to move after the first wrap and before finishing and certainly no movement after the first coat. I do suggest a lock wrap on all single foot guides. It is important to get finish down along the guide foot but that generally happens on the first coat unless the mix has firmed up too much before applying. A guide that wobbles certainly will not last long.

A few issues back we did some tests on the strength of color preserver. One thing we found is that the epoxy finish which builds up, or should build up, at and in the "tunnel" area has more to do with guide stability than does wrapping tension or depth of finish on the top of the wrap. By filling this area you effectively create a shoulder or wall for the guide to brace against.

It seems like a small thing, but the difference in strength between wraps where this was done and those where it was not was something like 4 to 1.

And no, wraps made with color preserver did not result in unherently weak wraps. In fact, they all fell well within 10% of the same strength as those where color preserver was not used.

I'd take the advice given above, all of it. Try to salvage what you have, but resign yourself to possibly having to rewrap all those loose guides at some point. Typically loose guides won't tighten up on their own. They may take a long time to get worse and be in danger of coming out of the wraps, but with enough use it is a definite possibility.

Like most of us, you now learn from your mistakes. It's the hardest way to progress, but the surest by far.

....................

ok fellas, thanks!

i'm calling the customer back (he's a pretty good friend of mine anyway) to bring the rod back in for a rewrap. i've offered to build him another rod at a very nice discount to make up for it, and he seems very happy with that arrangement.

Matt,
Agree with the concensus to rewrap the guides. Couple of points, and it's difficult to know without seeing first hand for helping your situation but the points brought out about filling the tunnel are very valid. If you are mixing the finish properly, and feel the thread tension is adequate, and the guides are seated (aligned) to the blank, the feet are shaped (ground?) to conform to the blank curve, etc. All these little things to watch for are important, but use of enough amount of epoxy and getting it to where it should go (tunnel also) is the thing to ensure. I shouldn't think the necessesity of using other mixtures (eg. crazy glue) to the epoxy finish will aid in the holding power as many, many guides have been wrapped with this particular finish (LS Supreme) by itself, with or without C.P., and have superior holding without loosening guides.

Go back and carefully note the details suggested, and since this is a custom rod, why not consider that extra securtiy loop wrapping ahead of the guide as well, but still make sure enough epoxy gets at the feet through the tunnel.

If the problem is consistent after satisfying yourself that all proper steps are employed with seating the guide, perhaps something related to the batch of epoxy?, thread weakness (rare possilility) or some such thing. I think it's just probably something with practice, patience, and careful observation that you'll improve upon the skills.
Not to be too judgemental, but usually the devil is in the details that if thinking back or closer observing, you'll probably figure out the problem to fix for next time. good luck.

Rich
Richard's Rod & Reel

i just re-read the string, and a question about CP came to mind.

if i read this right, you guys are saying that CP will "soak" into the tunnel area, negating the need to use a toothpick or other such instrument to place finish in the tunnel. if i'm reading that part right, it sounds like i may need to think about using CP. it may be easier to use cp than mess with the toothpicks? i'm not looking for a shortcut, but if one way is easier, and it works just as good....

whaddya think?

Matt,

No, not at all! I did not mean to mislead you. I thought the CP would seal the thread preventing epoxy from getting in there. If you did not use CP I hoped maybe there was a chance some epoxy had soaked through. But, that would have been by accident. That was a bad question I asked, just ignore it. There is no short-cut.

Bill Doherty

no problem bill. i'm sure that i mis-read, or mis-understood (my wife says i do that often). as is usually the case, there is no short cut for doing anything right!

thanks for all the responses guys!

I have not seen the loose guide problem (although I have only build 3 or 4 spinning rods.... still new to the hobby). I always try to "plug" the tunnel area, but not to the extent described. Also, I think my wraps are generally tighter than Matt described.

I have gone over to the Forhan locking wrap on all single foots. This does not really leave much of a tunnel area to fill. Is this OK?

The finish will still get in there and you can help it by placing a drop of finish there with a toothpick as described above. The Forhan lock wrap encircles the guide and really reinforces it in my opinion.

With or without CP I think you need to get a little finish at the opening of the tunnel.

Whether using cp or not it is important to FLOOD the wrap with the first coat of cp or finish to make sure that the thread is fully soaked & penetrated. You can brush off the excess before the finish begins to harden and you can be certain that your guides will not move. I have had no problem with loose guides since I began doing this. With LS Supreme (no cp) this often results in a perfect finish in one coat, the tunnels fully filled and a smooth, level finish coat.

followup:

well, i cut guides off of 6 spinning rods last night! at least i'm getting alot of practice re-wrapping! anyway, i had one tied up, and waiting for finish, so i got me a toothpick and went to it. i put quite a bit of finish inside each tunnel, then stood the rod verticle for a few minutes to let it set up a little. you could watch the finish that i dripped in the tunnel flow down inside the tunnel, and saturate the thread nicely from the inside. then i mixed another batch of finish, and put the rod in the dryer while applying my first coat of finish. i looked at it this morning, and it looked great, ready for the second coat tonight.


i'll let ya'll know how it comes out either way.