Tom, you've discussed about abrading the the surface of blanks with scotchbrite to bond it well with the epoxy (and in the RodMaker Magazine).

That was obviously re blanks with gloss surfaces. I was wondering about those blanks with matt surfaces. What is your take on those? Of course scoring/abrading the surface would not be wrong, but other than making sure it is clean, is it absolutely necessary?

Thanks

The same procedure should be used. Clean first, thouroughly, then abrade/scour with the grey 3M pad. Then apply adhesive.

You are doing more than just abrading the surface when you use the ScotchBrite pad - you are also creating a static charge on the surface that creates a better environment for the adhesive to bond to.

Sure, this sounds like overkill and those who use sandpaper or other types of pads still get an adequate bond. But what we try to present is the very best way. And why not? It's quick and easy and ensures that you get the best bond possible.

.......................

My opinion on Matte finish dont use sand paper or any kind of pad, just clean are with alcohol.. I think I read something about this a Gloomis does not recomend useing sand paper or any kind of pad on their blanks.. Thanks Dave

Dave
The only way you could possibly do worse than merely cleaning with alcohol is to smear a little engine oil in there along with the alcohol. There are literally zillions of bond failures on rods due to improper surface preparation, and usually its the bonding agent itself that gets the blame. Alcohol is suitable for cleaning the area in preparation for removal of the oxides and the myriad of surface whatnots that are always present on any organic matter. These surfaces are not bondable (or paintable) and are best prepared by briskly abrading with Scotchbrite #7448 grey. Sandpaper is more agressive and can overkill the surface if not used prudently, and does not give the surface charge obtained with Scotchbrite. A matte finish is no different than a gloss surface except it doesn't show the shine. When you talk to loomis (or any rod company) about these things you invariably talk to some public relations guy, and their main interest is in protecting the rod and the rod finish -- I have received an unbelievable amount of bad information --downright wrong information--from these guys. Solvent alone is never--repeat NEVER a sufficient preparation for a bondable surface on anything. Quite the contrary, the judicial usage of solvents is responsible for more bond failures than any other single cause.
Ralph

I have seen more bond failures due to lack of Epoxy... Thanks Dave

Dave I agree that lack of epoxy or improper location and application of epoxy is linked to many, many bond failures. It's an ongoing problem that I imagine any of us who do repairs have noticed quite often.

But the other big problem area lies with improper surface prep, which no amount of epoxy can rectify. I know too many rod builders who believe that by adding more epoxy or pouring in extra epoxy they can make up for any deficiencies in surface prep. It won't. The surface that a little bit of epoxy won't stick to - is the same one that a lot of epoxy won't stick to.

..............................

Tom this subject should have been mentioned in previous post on the reel seat problems,I don't know how many seats I have repaired where I was able to peel off the epoxy{adhesive} from the blank it didn't adhere what so ever many mass produced and unfortunatley some custom rods also have absolutley no surface prep,I believe I have mentioned before quite often the inside of the reel seat will appear as brand new not a trace of epoxy to be found.Good surface prep is essential in getting a good bond.
John

Ralph, Tom, and others...

I would not begin to debate you guys on the best ways to apply epoxy on reel seats. If you say that scuffing the graphite with Scotchbrite is the way to go, then I'll believe you. Just to raise a point though, if it is so important to scuff the blank under the reel seat, why is it not equally important to scuff under guide wraps? Will the epoxy and thread stick better to the blank finish under guides than it does under seats?

I know Ralph is "the man" when it comes to adhesives, but I've talked with the tech support folks as Shell, who make the Epon epoxy formulations that so many rodmaking glues are based upon. Shell does NOT recommend that surfaces be roughed. They do recommend that the surfaces be thoroughly cleaned, and often it takes some sort of very fine abrasive to really clean the surfaces. Then the surfaces should be thorougly de-greased. Any number of solvents will do a good job of de-greasing.

According to other experts (other than Ralph, I mean)I've talked with, epoxy bonds best with relatively smooth surfaces.
Good woodworkers will tell you that bonds are best on smooth surfaces rather than rough. For my peace of mind, when woodworking give me two surfaces that have been planed or scraped or chiseled rather than having been sanded. Why that same line of thinking would not apply to making rods, I don't know.

I'm certain I don't understand electro-static charges adding to the strength of a glue bond. But I can see that if scuffing is required to get things really clean, that will make a big difference. Can you enlighten me a little more on this?

Thanks in advance,
Harry Boyd

www.canerods.com

Harry
I think we are playing with symantics a bit. There is no disagreement between technical people who have been involved with what it takes to make a glue stick. The shell people are telling it correctly, part of their research stems from the same source wherin mine originated. You never ever want a rough surface when bonding -- with anything not just epoxies. This is one of the reasons for pushing scotchbrite over sandpaper for abrading. Scotchbrite does not leave a rough surface -- it leaves a smooth clean surface. Where shell is wrong is degreasing the surface AFTER cleaning/abrading. This is satisfactory IF one has available a tank vapor degreaser. Very few rod builders have such facilities handy, and we are commonly forced to resort to hand rubbing with alcohol or some such mundane substances. This operation in turn can ruin the abraded surface and contaminate it greater than it was before abrading. Abrading with Scotchbrite actually rearranges the molecular surface --similar to rubbing a plastic rod with rabbit fur-- and makes the surface much more receptive to bonding. Wiping the abraded surface with anything wet--spoils that surface as well as depositing contaminates in the process. For our operation we MUST clean the surface with solvent, then abrade with Scotchbrite, then bond. Roughing the surface with heavy grit sandpaper - or gouging with files etc., is counterproductive and does more harm than good. The same line of thinking that you use on woods applies to rods also. It is interesting to note that major structural bonds on aircraft are accomplished on surfaces that have been prepared glassy smooth, and are quite shiny when the adhesive is applied. This shine is considerably different than the shine (that must be removed) exists on our rod blanks.
There is no reason to scuff under guide wraps. We are not bonding on the guide wraps. We are tying them on, then applying the epoxy to protect the threads. The best epoxy in the world is not going to save a lousy tie job. You could scuff under the wraps if you wanted to. What are you gaining? Its hard enough to remove the epoxy for a repair job when we don't scuff, it would be nearly impossible to remove it, if it were scuffed and properly cleaned before tying
Ralph.

Ralph,

As I said, I am sure you are right; and I'm positive you are more knowledgable about these things than I. Words, semantics, are the only means we have to communicate, and sometimes are not as effective as we might hope.

All my recent experience comes from working with bamboo. As you know the exterior surfaces of the bamboo are sanded, albeit with quite fine paper. I tend to start with 400 grit, and work to 1000 grit paper. The surface of the bamboo literally shines. As you have suggested, I would never use coarse sandpaper or a file to rough the surface before gluing. After fine-sanding, I use solvents to remove any sanding dust, grease from my hands, etc., before bonding. Perhaps I would be better off just using compressed air to remove the dust...

What concerns me is leaving dust from the finish, whether it be bamboo or graphite. Surely the Scotchbrite leaves some dust which must be removed? Or am I wrong about that, as well?

Thanks for all your help...

Harry Boyd

Thanks for the lesson, and I look forward to seeing you at the Guild Conclave in a couple of weeks... I still want you to try one of these bamboo rods glued with Epon! I think you'll like them.

I have not seen Tom or Ralph mention anything about roughening the surface. They have said to scour or abrade it with Scotchbrite and I can tell you that grey Scotchbrite won't do much more than lightly scratch the surface at best. You couldn't create gouges with it if you tried!

From what I read in the last issue of Rodmaker any abraded residue just becomes filler in the epoxy when it is applied and is not considered a contaminant. Sounds reasonable to me. Scotchbrite doesn't really create much in the way of sanding residue to begin with.

For Ralph I would ask this question --- suppose we used compressed air to blow off any sanding residue? Or is it just unecessary? In other words do we gain anything by getting what little is on there, off? Thanks.

William et al
Compressors are notorious for blowing oily water onto your surface. Is your comressor air filtered? probably not, mine isn't. The meager amount of abrasive dust that collects on a surface after a Scotchbrite abrade, merely becomes absorbed into the epoxy. Paste epoxies are full of similar materiels used as fillers. sometimes when a particular job takes an extra amount of abrading, it is wise to start with a light sandpaper then go to the scotchbrite for the final abrasive. The sandpaper may cause a small amount of abrasive dust, but the scotchbrite will wipe most of it away, what remains does no harm. Removing it is where the harm comes into play. Treat your scotchbrite treatment as a final -- hands off-- operation then apply adhesive as soon as possible.
Ralph

That really answered my question. I had not considered that by its very make up Scotchbrite will pick up and hold most of its own residue. Okay, I'll do it!

This is quite a "spirited" debate on the topic of adhesion. I always garner a "Professional" response from Ralph, his expertise in this field is overwhelming. Now for the infamous question....Do you use the same Scotchbrite material for the reelseat? Thanks and keep the info in motion.

Pat Barnard

Pat,

Use the same pad for all the surfaces. Take a look at the article on surface in prep in RodMaker and view the photo where I passed a solvent alcohol soaked rag through a new reel seat bore. See that black stuff all over it?

That's one reason that heavy gouging and scoring is not recommended. Had I just put a heavy file or large grit sandpaper in there that black junk would have been pressed and scored into deep grooves and scratches which would then have been almost impossible to remove with an alcohol wipe down.

.....................

Man, this thread scares me a bit! Probably the first 3-4 rods I made, I did not do ANY abrading! I just epoxied the blank and slid everything on!

Serious question: Do you think these reel seats are going to break loose and spin at some future time? Or will I be saved by the adhesive power of the epoxy?

TH

Ralph,
Must the pads be Scotchbrite #7448 or other pads will do. From where I am I find it difficult to get the #7448 but have found other brands of scouring pads, mostly Italian. The only 3M pad I saw today at the store was a sponge-backed pad #535.
Henry