I wonder how many of you have read the article in the recent issue of American Angler on rod building? I guess it's simple enough and really aimed at the guy who is just getting started. But I found some things in there that are just not right. I could overlook it except that the guy who wrote it has a new rod building book coming out in the Spring according to the footnote on the end of the article. I sort of figure after this article that the book will be less than great on facts.

One of the things he stated was that the spine was the stiffest axis. Unless I am wrong myself its the softest, right? The outside of the relaxed curve? He also seems big on masking tape bushings although he does mention the brick foam type which he calls "graphite filled".

I wrote the editor and suggested he have the writer spend some time on these rod building boards to pick up some good info. I don't want to pick it apart and I know he was only writing a story. But it looks like he would do a bit more homework before writing a book on the subject.

Chuck, I have not read the article, and spines have been pretty much over rated. The more important thing is to get your guides on the bottom side of the rod to avoid torque damage. On the subject of masking tape: Every time I see a post about masking tape as an arbor I can almost see the sneers that go along with it. Long before brick foam arbors there was masking tape. It has been used successfully for years and is still in place on rods that were built years ago. Once the tape is in place, the glue bond and the seat protect it from the elements. It cannot go anywhere and it can't unravel. Try it sometime and see how easy it is to build up two or three bands under the seat. It is also a faster way to build up the arbor because you don't have two glue joints. It also doesn't weigh any more than foam arbors with two glue joints. I prefer the foam arbors if there is lot of gap to take up, but if the gap is close I use tape every time and have never lost a seat. I am in my sixties now and maybe the author of that article is showing his age with techniques.

The only rods where I have been called on to make repairs on seats that have come loose had masking tape bushings. These were usually larger bushings though and not just 2 or 3 turns. More like 20 or 30 turns. Years ago before brick foam I used cork arbors. There was a time when you could buy small diameter cork rings just for that purpose.

I think the spine is important for casting but agree with you on the torque thing. Guides belong on the bottom of the rod.

Dave - I can't disagree with you and I don't mean to pick on the guy. It's just that if someone is going to write and article and especially a book on rod building you'd think they would be a bit more up to date. Heck, I barely know what I'm doing but I'm not writing a book that might influence thousands of beginning rod builders either.

Chuck- I wasn't being critical of your comments in any form. I just wanted to point out that there are many ways to do things, and the latest gizmos that hit the market are not always better or worse, just different. Like William said, his repairs were done on thick build up of tape - that should be avoided. I believe that most factory or mass produced rods are built up with tape and it probably isn't the tape that fails, but more likely a bad glue joint. If using tape, the tape should be wiped off good with alcohol prior to using the glue, and the gap between the seat and the tape should be very close, just a light slip fit. If the glue joint gap is too wide, it will eventually fail regardless of arbor type. Also it is very, very important to clean the inside of the reelseat as it probably has some manufacturing residue such as mold release agents that will weaken the glue joint. Keep posting Chuck, it's things like this that keep us all informed and getting better at what we do. Happy Holidays.

The is absolutely nothing wrong with masking tape bushings. I have been using them for over 15 years and to my knowledge, I have never had a reel seat come loose. If I have, the customer did not tell me.

You can control the compression and fit of the reel seat much better than with graphite bushings.

I only use 3 rings of 3/4" tape. The first is placed 1/8" from the end of the static hood, the second is placed under the movable hood at the point where the hood will be tight against the reel foot and, the third is placed 1/8" from the threaded end.

You have to coat both sides of a tape bushing and you have to stand the rod UP to keep the epoxy from running to the side of the seat. Most seat replacements that I have done have been on factory rods with cardboard or tape bushings where the factory laid the rod down and the epoxy ran to the bottom of the seat. When you push the seat across the tape a bead of expoxy will roll up and want to drip off. Don't let it, simply rotate the rod as you slip the seat on and let the excess epoxy roll under the seat as it slips on.

Most of the seat failures I have dealt with, and there have been hundreds if not thousands in the nearly 20 years I made such repairs, have been with rods that utilized masking tape bushings. I have to believe the overall failure rate of rods that use such is a low percentage however, or the factories would be forced to come up with something better. Still, it can be argued that masking tape is the poorest way, even though it might be adequate in most rod building situations, to create bushings for a reel seat. Adhesive should not be counted on, or used, as a means of support. The bushing or arbors should perform that task. Tape will shrink over time and the adhesive that the tape is backed with will also fail. This is one of the reasons that tape bushings of large diameter do fail - the tape slips upon itself. The other major reason is that moisture gets to the tape and undermines it.

Mike is correct in that if you encapsulate your tape bushings with epoxy, the chance for either of these scenarios happening is much less. Many rod builders will continue to use masking tape for their seat bushings. Personally, I would never use such a thing on a quality rod. It is quicker and easier and much more certain, to use a rigid arbor for supporting the reel seat. But to each his own.

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Art Scheck is the editor at Saltwater Fly Fishing. He is the writer of the article mentioned here and also is slated to release a new rod building book called "Fly-Rod Building Made Easy" sometime in the Spring. Countryman Press is the publisher.

I have not read his book as it is not available even for review at this time. I will say that I would imagine that anyone who follows the instructions he gives will end up with a serviceable rod. It is doubtful that any of us, myself included, will agree with everything that he will write in his book. But you have to be careful not to discredit something which you have not read.

My own book was picked apart and discredited by a few people who later admitted to me that they had not even read it! Thus I know what it is like to be the recipient of unfounded criticism. At best it's not nice and at worst, it's extremely unfair. Let's wait and see what Art has to say on rod building when his book is actually published. Who knows, we might all be surprised and decide it's the best thing yet written on the subject.

As far as his article - yes there were some things that might not be considered cutting edge in it, but overall it will likely serve to get a few more people involved in this craft. And that's a good thing all the way around.

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"I would never use such a thing on a quality rod".

I don't think you meant that the way it sounded. I would venture to say that thousands of quality rods built by thousands of rod builders using tape bushings are still in use today. I would also venture to say that there are also very old rods in use that have cardboard, cord, fiberglass cloth and cork bushings still in use today. It is not necessarily the material for the bushing but the installation that makes the difference.

I use tape and I consider my rods to be quality rods. I have also used graphite and I haven't seen one hill of beans difference in the quality of the rod.

I have to disagree that a "quality" rod cannot be built using tape bushings. I don't think that it is a fair statement to say that one type of bushing or another determines the quality of the overall rod. The purpose of a bushing is to provide a spacer for the area between the seat and the blank that will provide support and keep the seat from spinning. The installation of any type of bushing is the key to keeping it in place. I don't care what type of bushing is used, if it keeps the reel seat stable for the life of the rod then it has served it's purpose.

High tech doen't necessarily mean that it works any better. Unless you use a reamer tapered to the exact taper of the blank, you DO NOT achieve 100% contact of the bushing with the blank. If you don't get the taper close to the blank taper, when you slide the graphite bushing down the blank, you will push all of the epoxy with the leading edge of the bushing leaving a space between the following edge and the blank. You then have to rely on capillary action to suck the excess epoxy into the cavity between the blank and bushing.

The excess epoxy that is applied to the bushings before installing the reel seet does the same thing no matter what type of bushing you use. It serves to lock the whole system in place. The excess epoxy flows to the bushing, seat and blank forming a monolithic bond. I don't care how many wraps of tape you use, the system still works.

I still contend that if you properly rough up the seat and the blank, properly intall the tape, and properly lock the whole mess together with excess epoxy, you achieve the purpose intended for the spacer.

Bushings and arbors are not "high tech" regardless of what you make them out of. But there are some construction methods and materials which are more sound than others.

Arbors made from something such as brick foam are easy to achieve 100% surface contact with, and they don't "move" once installed. Tape is subject to swelling to shrinking. I have repaired reel seats on rods with tape bushings where the builder did do a good job of glueing everything up - but either water or sheer force got to the bushings and they slipped.

Yes, it's probably safe to say that 99% off the rods made with tape bushings are still out there giving service and aren't like to cause any problems. But the tape bushings are the weak link in the chain. In most cases they are strong enough to hold up. In a few, they are not.

How we make our rods has a lot to do with the background we look to. I am constantly amazed at the work done by the best gun and furniture makers (most rod builders do not do this level of work - this may upset some, but I feel it is true). I have learned how they make things fit, and nobody there uses masking tape in their joints.

If I was pressed to use some type of tape, it would be fiberglass drywall tape. Epoxy will penetrate the grip spaces and render it less likely to move or slip than masking tape. It's the best alternative if you don't want to use rigid arbors. Just as quick as masking tape and much more durable.

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Very interesting topic,I also often use tape as an arbor and almost all my reel seat repairs stem from mass produced rods with tape arbors but from my observations a large part of the problem stems not so much with the use of tape but to the ammount used. I think we as builders tend to use the closest size seat to the blank wich means we will use as Mike alluded to a couple of turns of tape to fill the gap, mass produces on the other hand will attempt to use a very large ammount of tape which at times is well over 3/8 inch in height, when this occurs I agree with Tom that the tape will move and even start to peel off, couple this with using a bare minimum ammount of adhesive leads to failure. One other odity perhaps I have noticed is that these failures at least in Florida seem to occur far more often during our hot summers and drop off noticably during cold spells, which could be just less people fishing, another note in many cases I will find a considerable ammount of moisture under the seat and the tape will be actually soggy at times, the debate goes on.
John

For what it's worth I'll come in on this.

First, Mike has a good point in that the tape bushing may not have that much bearing on 'quality'. Also, another point is what type of bonding agent is used. Using tape busings with spacing as Mike points out and fill with a "quality" bonding agent such as vertical paste type epoxy such as Rod Bond should sufficiently serve the purpose for long term holding power. I woul make sure the 'filling' between the arbors makes contact with the walls of the reel seat, and the sides of the tape down to the blank, regardless of how high the tape is built up.

Another point, to be fair to Tom and those who advocate more use of brick foam or graphite arbors, is that they are extremely light weight for their strength and are easy to ream. Also, the use of dry wall tape is favorable that a lot of rodbuilders will successfully use. I visited a commercial factory rod manufacturer recently, and was impressed by their proprietary use of a less rigid closed cell (I think it is?) material where no particular drilling is necessary to fit with the reel seat (speeds things up).
Any of these methods, I believe is a vast improvement over a cardboard spacer with minimal use of adhesive.

I like to think the adhesive (bonding agent) is doing more of the work in keeping the reel seat from failing and would make more sure contact with this material on the blank-to-arbor point as well as reel seat wall to arbor points, and inbetween arbors of any kind.

Rich
Solyrich Custom Rods

"I am constantly amazed at the work done by the best gun and furniture makers (most rod builders do not do this level of work - this may upset some, but I feel it is true). I have learned how they make things fit, and nobody there uses masking tape in their joints."

They also don't use graphite in a joint.

A joint is only the joining of two surfaces. It is the epoxy or other bonding agent on those surfaces that makes the joint permanent. On a rod, you have three surfaces and two joints; seat to bushing and bushing to blank. As long as your bushing is relatively non-compressive and as long as you tie all three surfaces together with epoxy you will have a permanent joint. Tape was never meant to be the bonding agent, it is only the bushing. Tape will not come unraveled unless the seat can spin. The seat can't spin unless the entire epoxy system comes apart and a properly installed sytem will not come apart any quicker than a similarly installed graphite bushing.

I also don't agree that most rod builders do not do the type of work that gun and furniture makers do. It is all relative to the amount of work you want to put into the item being built. I have built simple and complex furniture and other woodworking projects as well as taught woodworking. I am currently building a rifle. The difference is only in the materials and the size that you are working with, not the time and effort you want put in to the building.

I have seen some of the rods done by builders on this site that I envy. I wish that I had the time to put into doing true works of art such as some of the beautiful cane fly rods that I have seen in Rodmaker. They are every bit as beautiful as a fine veneered chess board. These rods, I guarantee took as much time, effort and dedication as building a gun or a piece of furniture

I realize that this discussion is all based on subjective views and there is no final answer on the matter. I assume, some type of destructive test could be done on all different methods. I would gladly particpate if someone would come up with the criteria.

Actually with tape you have more than three surfaces, you have all the surfaces of the tape that are joined to each other. That's where tape will fail if it is going to - in and on itself. Epoxy is not designed to be used as a bushing for support - it only adheres the items together. It is true that epoxy has both adhesive and cohesive strength, but only to a point. The larger the tape bushing is, the more likely it can give problems. More surfaces against each other, and the seat is further from the center so leverage on the bushing is greater.

By the way, masking tape does not absorb epoxy, for whatever that is worth.

I've done some tests and will say that tape bushings will let go before the other methods will. But it is important to realize that most fishing situations don't put that kind stress on our equipment. That is why tape bushings hold up most of the time just fine. No one has said that it is definitely a recipe for diaster. Only that under certain conditions or in the presence of moisture they seem to be less than desireable.

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I must agree with Mike. I have used tape bushings on bass rods for several years and even offering a lifetime waranty on my work I still haven't had to repair a reel seat.

The tape bushings are for the purpose of holding the real seat in place as the epoxy hardens.

I hold the rod vertical while applying the adhesive, sliding the reel seat up over the busshings and filling the gaps completely with epoxy.

Even when I have used graphite bushings I glue them in place leaving 1 inch spaces in between so that the epoxy will do its job. After doing a few that way I realized it wasn't worth the trouble.

Gentelmen Tom hit on the correct answers a few lines back when mentioned encapsilate. If you do not get enought bonding material in side you reelseat some thing well give and it is your reelseat. I have been building rods and repairing rods for over 20 years, I have seen cardboard, twine, maskeing tap, graphit fiberglas material all being use for abors. I am talking about renouned rod companies using these materials also. What has caused a reelseat faliure is not the material used for arbors, but is the bonding agents used. There was not enough bonding material used or they used a quick set type that crystalize and broke free. What you have to remember is a relseat arbor is just a spacer
Bob

Which 'tis truly better I cannot say. But if I was a fisherman looking at custom rods and was offered two rods one with tape and one with the graphite type bushings I know which one I would buy. I suppose if you don't tell people about that part of the building process or they don't ask, then it doesn't matter. But if I was using those rigid bushings I would sure make it a selling point against my competition. Whether they are or are not really better I do not know, but I know that they sound a lot better.

I want to get on the book subject for a minute. Tom I would be interested to know who talked down your book without actually reading it. Nasty business. I have read it cover to cover twice and really enjoyed it. I liked the fact that you presented information and gave several ways of doing each thing. I believe you even showed 3 or 4 things arbors could be made from!

I will probably buy Mr. Schecks new book just to have it in my library. And you are right to say we should not pass judgement on it until we read it.

One last thing. In the Rodmaker magazine on the cover photographs. Sometimes there is a photo credit telling us whose rod work we are looking at. Most times there is no credit given. I would like to know whose rod I am looking at. I suspect the ones where no credit is given are yours. Correct? Why not take credit? You really should. Modesty is a nice trait but I would like to know whose work I am looking at.

Just want to side track the discussion a bit. I have bought graphite foam arbors to try them out. I bought them as I'd the impression that they are supposed to be more rigid than tape, thus have better sensitivity and so on.

However I did find that as they are foam, although it is stiff, it does have some give. More give than I would have expected and not as rigid as I would have thought. Comparing cork as an arbor to graphite foam I used, I think cork felt more rigid or firm.

Or are other types of foam arbors more rigid than cork?

Any thoughts out there on this.

The ones I have gotten from both Fuji and Pac Bay have been more rigid than cork. Not 100% hard but pretty darn firm. I can put my thumnail into cork pretty easily, but not these. I would say they are as light as cork though.