Has anyone used the Fuji WDBSG & DBSGs, double and single footed power oval guides extensively or even experimented with them? They came out about 3 years ago but I have not heard nor seen there use except for some production rods by Offshore Angler.
I have a wild hair tickling my fancy about using them to spiral wrap a light saltwater inshore rod. Before I fork out the bucks for probably the most expensive SiC guides made (largest double footed guide, #10=$12.82) I would like to know how durable they are.
Thanks,
Jim

I have used them hear in Australia once or twice and never again. There to weak and flimsy for the rating they are given. I think they where deperate for somthing new so they copied the Aftco system in a round about way. O.K they look great, they are dam expensive, they bend real easy, need i say more. I dont know what you yanks reckon but i have many years as a pro rod builder and these guides are the biggest joke i have seen to this day and yes i have seen many come and go and these dam things make me sick i dont know how they get away with it.


Stuart Mackenzie
Precision Rods
Australia

Like all Fuji products, they are well made. But I am not sure about the applications where they offer any real advantage over other types of Fuji ceramic guides. The double footed models are fine up to 30lb class rods. The single foot models will not handle anything near that. The flat juncture between the upright and the foot is just not up to the task of anything approaching heavy-duty use.

I still prefer any of the LR_G guides for light-duty stand-up or boat rods. The old tri-leg styles trolling guides for most of those type rods, and anything over 50lbs the AFTCO rollers.

Perhaps these Power Oval guides will find a niche at some point but I sure don't have any idea what it may be.

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Thanks gentlemen, I was planning to use them to spiral wrap a Graphite USA ASW79F, a 15-20# blank which I will fish mainly 15#. May just do it also because of their low profile, as well.
Chef Jim

Hello Chef,
I am a Japanese rod builder and mainly make Japanese style offshore bait rods. I frequently use Fuji oval guides. These guides were made for Japanese style offshore bait fishing. In our fishing we use long (8~13 ft) and very moderate action rods. And it give us much trouble to be in a tangle of line and guides. Fuji oval guides were introduced to release such problem from fishermen. I think they were success in this point. Acutely more than half of offshore bait fishing rods from manufactures in Japan has Fuji oval guides. I recognize this guides are not strong as Mr. Mackenzie said. So we use only under 30#. Especially single foot type is weak against pulling up.
Michiki Kawai

Kawai-san, What is the species of fish you target with these long rods wrapped with the Fuji Ovals. I've thought of using them on salmon mooching rods in a 9' length, though the price of these guides is relatively high compared to the standard hardaloy or even SIC guides.

Why, in the light of all the many, many bad reports on the Oval guides and considering the fact they are horribly expensive, and they are weak as water, would anyone even consider using these guides. Do you think they're pretty, do you think they're sexy?
Why?

They probably work very well when used for the task they were designed for. It seems this gentleman from Japan may have a bit more insight into the niche they were made for. Fuji has a pretty darn good track record for making a quality product. Hard to believe they would put out something that is just plain bad. I suspect its more of a good product being used in the improper situation.

Yes and yes. These guides stand for the newest inovation in years, everything else is passe. Even the Fuji concept guides are just remakes of old ideas.
The most attractive part about the ovals, aside from the avante garde opening is the very low profile. If I'm not mistaken the ovals are almost as low as snake guides, lower because of their unique shape than the fly rod LSGs. "So what?" You say! I think if these guides are at the least strong enough to handle the inshore application that I want, 10#-17#, then these guide pose an even newer inovation when used in a spiral wrap! Low profile, close to the blank and almost achieving what the interline rods do but with guides, that is the true curve and action of blanks!
Yes, I think they're pretty sexy!

Nice to meet you, Kameichi san.
We get snapper, yellowtail, flounder, rockfish, squid and etc with these long rods. So many kinds of fish, but they are usually under 10 ponds. The reason we use oval guides is why they are tangle free. On Offshore fishing in Japan most of fishermen use PE line (braided polyethylene line) nowadays. This line is very strong but very soft compare to nylon line. So joining this line and long mooching action rod together, we have much trouble being tangle line and guides. The oval guides solved this problem by itfs shape.
I donft know whether oval guides is sexy or not. But I am sure it is tangle free.
Thanks,
Michiki Kawai

Sekken ga semai ne? Good to see how the Web truly unites the world. Thank you for you explanations Mr. Kawai and Mr. Kameichi. I hope the rod building business is treating you well in Nippon despite the tougher economic times. Futari tomo, eigo wa o joozu yo!

Go for it, Chef! Cook up a Spiral Wrap, fish it a couple times and report back as to how you like it. Post some pics. Who knows, you may develop the Hula Hoop of rod building.

Hello offshore rod building bretheren!

Can you send a link to all of the Fuji products that you have available in Japan? Maybe we can work out some deals to help the trade deficit!

Miki is right, the Oval guides are principally designed for keeping the long lng rods and guides tangle free. And the my friends from a tackle shop in Japan told me that they'd only recommend 20lb max. (Miki you might now them, Fishing Marounochi in Nagoya).

And also as mentioned they are low profile, so as to apply the new concept design and get the line closer to blank and have more of them to get more power out of the rod. Also one should note, the single foot models are soft and are intended to be used close together to spread out the load among more guides, again the new concept design.

Chef, I wouldn't recommend it for a spiral wrap.

As for the salmon rod, only if you've a problem with your line tangling around the rod guides when you lift the rod vertically.

What's your recommendation against the use of the ovals in a spiral wrap? I would be using the double footed WDBSGs for the stipper and the transition guides while using the single footed DBSGs for the reat. The Graphite USA blank that I have is a 15# stick, well within your recommended max of 20#.
Just curious, can you elaborate?
Jim

Primarily because it was not designed for a spiral wrap it might have problems. I haven't built a spiral wrap, though my rod building teacher loves it. He had it on his boat rods and was building it before the 90s.

1) the oval frame is at an angle to the rod, thus when you look through the guide parallel to the rod it looks round. However when the line runs through the transition guides it contacts the Sic ring on the side, that means running at an angle, in essence more surface area of the line and Sic contacting.

2) the double foot Wdbsgs for the transition, the additional support foot in front is quite forward and might not the line touch it as the line curves round the transition?

You'd probably be in a better position to judge this is you were to have a set of them and test run them though.

Have you considered using the new MNSG if you required the butt guide high off the blank or the LNSG for lower seating guides? The single foot LSG or SG would be suitable for the guides near the top if you build with the new concept principal.

I look forward to hearing your opinions on the above or the result of your decision on the spiral wrap.

I have always questioned conventional wisdom which in turn has made me try new things, sometime they worked sometimes they didn't. In this case, what guide IS made for the spiral wrap(aka acid wrap in my neck of the woods)? If friction apperturewere the biggest criteria then why do the Aftco lite weight roler guides work, their apperture is less than 1/2 that of ringed guides. In the right hands, on the right rod, they pitch lite weight 1/8-1/4 lead heads just as far as conventional ringed guides with as much effort. If this were also the case with level wind reels, why then are the guides the same shape as the power ovals and not round like rod guides? What Kawai-san did not mention is why Fuji came out with the power oval in the fiirst place and that was to compete with the Daiwa Interline rods which dominated the the Japanese offshore ultralite fishery. Up until the design of the power oval, the only way to fish these ultra parabolic 13' rods with out tangling the line was the interline design. This sounds awfully close to the story related to in the Clemens' book of the Roberts wrap design. Ultralite noodle rods? So why then not continue the connecton of rod building in parallel worlds and use the Power Ovals in a Roberts wrap as well?!
You're not the first to warn the ovals would not work in a spiral wrap! Dorge Huan from Chicago, a builder and student of Japanese fishing styles, already has.
As for the guides in the acid wrap configuration, when Jim Kastroff and I were discussing the wrap on his 60# off shore outfit, he had his son pull as hard as he could on a Penn Int. 16S with 60# to put a load on the rod and guides. He called to ask me if he should move the guides so that the line touched the transition guides because at full load, the line center punched the guides without touching! My point, the transition guides are just that, the load bearing guides would be the stripper at 0 degrees and the first 180 guide the rest of the load would be distributed over the rest of the 5-6 guides on the tip section. As Mr. Forhan or Mr. Morton mentioned for those guide use the lightest possible guides, again, the Power Ovals.
Sorry for being long winded! I'm not interested in other guides, I'm interested with the spiral wrap and the power ovals (if the hold up) I still think one could acheive the most neutral guide wrap without changing the true interity of the action of a blank in this way. The next best thing would be a GUSA interline rod!
Jim
PS-did anyone mention that one of the Japanese rods with the Fuji Power Ovals retails for over $600?!

I think you have misunderstood my explanations.

There is no contention about the size of the aperture here.

As I said the guides are oval as the guide does not lie perpendicular to the blank. Thus if a round guide is used (instead of oval) and it is 45 degrees or less to the blank the guide viewed parallel to the blank or as the line should flow, it wouldn't be round but very flat with possible contact on the line both from the top and lower edges of the ring. My concern is that when the line is running through the transition guides they will be running on the flat part of the oval, and unlike the normal usage, the line will be running diagonally across that part instead of perpendicularly if a standard guide ring that was perpendicular to the blank.

As for levelwind reels. The line basically runs perpendicularly through the levelwind guide, as it is set up to be so, no at an angle to the line flow like the fuji ovals. Deviating a bit, there is a difference in concept between Daiwa and Shimano as to why Daiwa uses "ovals" and Shimano uses "round" guides in their baitcasters (the shimano calcutta series is an exception, the high end chronarch type, ie Calais/Antares, Metanium, etc all use round). Both claim their design gives max distance. Their concept is interesting as was explained to me in Japan by the individual reps. The line leaves the spool not in a straight line but in sine wave, viewed horizontally from the side. So an oval guide will will give less friction says daiwa. Shimano however says their small round line guide will remove/reduce the wave and straighten the flow, thus reducing the line slap and similar problems at the rod guides.

I did not say it would not work, it just doesn't seem to be the best choice to me, however as a rod builder, it would be entirely your choice to experiment. I hope you'll let us know on the board how it does turn out.

You have brought up an interesting point that the transition guide doesn't carry a load thus friction is not a concern? Is that what you mean?

Is the ovals the lightest guides? I wouldn't have thought so, but then I haven't weighed them and compared them to the SG or LSG guides.

It just occured to me while writing this, if one wants the tangle free, why not mix and match (like Clemens says). Use the ovals for the top guides and standard guides for the transition and butt (if the ovals were found not suitable due to the line touching the forward feet).

Don't forget to use the CMNST tip, it is designed to be tangle free.