I have never used a polyurethane arbor to set a reel seat...ever. I have always used tape arbors. I have never had a bit of trouble with the tape arbors, but I'm not sure I want to die without ever having tried using a polyurethane arbor! I see that Fuji makes a polyurethane arbor with an outside diameter of 15mm. According to the specs, a Fuji DPS #16 reel seat has an ID of 15.5mm. Is that considered a good fit? I would imagine that if the fit was actually "perfect", there wouldn't be much if any real room for epoxy.

Also, although I would likely choose to run the arbor the entire length of the reel seat (less the length of what might be needed for a fighting butt), Herb Ladenheim has suggested cutting the arbors into smaller pieces and reaming each piece for a more precise fit, then mounting them on the blank first before fitting the reel seat over them.. I like that idea. How do you cut these arbors? From what I can gather, they seem to be the weight and consistency of big Cheese Doodles. Can you use a blade, or hacksaw?

Ernie,

16mm versus 15.5mm = Half a millimeter difference between poly O.D. and Seat I.D. If there are 25mm in an inch, then 0.5mm would be 1/50th of an inch difference. So, inside the reel seat, there is 1/100th inch space between seat and arbor on each side of a 16mm seat? That's thinner than my explanations of why I came home late after work.

I have never used masking tape to arbor a reel seat....ever. I have always used fiberglass drywall mesh, poly, or graphite arbors. Maybe I should try a tape arbor before I go fish amongst the clouds (clouds of angels or of sulfur is the debate between those who know me.) Tape is so easy to use because you can add a very thin layer at a time to get the fit wanted. Coated on all sides with epoxy, I've not heard any complaints about tape arbors - only that they "could" deteriorate/rot if water got to them.

If you want to try something different:

Poly arbors are very easy to cut. I use a light hobby saw (Razor Saw); a hacksaw blade works, too They sand easily if you want to square up or bevel the ends. Super easy to ream to fit the blank.

I usually install the arbor in the seat first and let cure. Then, ream the seat with arbors pre-installed to fit the blank. Why? If the arbor needs to be reamed very thin to fit the blank, it is challenging to manage delicate materials for me. I've done it, however, working with a 0.5mm hollow poly arbor takes additional care. At some point, a couple wraps of tape (masking or drywall) are so much easier and more than serve the purpose.

Poly arbors are light and stiff. Lighter than masking tape, per inch, if lighter is a goal. Stiffness to weight ratio is higher than masking tape. To be honest, five wraps of masking tape weigh nothing to notice.

I have used full-length arbors many times. No noticeable added weight. I have also cut poly arbors into sections and spaced them. Sometimes, I set them an inch at the front and an inch at the back of a seat to cover where the reel feet land. Sometimes, I might add another piece mid-seat. If I have a big-salt-wrestler-rod, I go full arbor and not worry about it.

Hope I helped you with my experience.

Ernie:
Arbors are easily cut with any fine tooth saw...ie hack saw.

I will also file/cut a groove in the arbors to help hold the epoxy.
I got this idea from Dale Clemons book.

Sometimes I find myself glueing an arbor to the blank first for the back of the reel seat and glueing the arbor into the reel seat for the front.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/25/2024 06:16PM by Chris Catignani.

Chris, thanks for posting that drawing with your description of what to do. I like it !! I like it a lot !!

And I've only ever used masking tape arbors for the reason that Les described, and that is when the gap I need to make up for, is very small. Otherwise I use polyurethane arbors. As far as a 15 mm OD arbor in a 15.5 mm ID reel seat .... from my experience that is more than enough room to get a nice solid bond. It's actually about what I look for. As said, you don't want it so tight that it wipes off virtually all of the epoxy. I use Rod Bond paste (I guess you call it) type epoxy. Haven't had a failure yet.

Thanks for the replies. I'm going to give it a shot. Great idea re the channeling of the arbor to get a little more epoxy into play.

I have been using the Mudhole black graphite arbors. I order the next size larger and turn it down for a snug fit in the reel seat. The arbor length is shorter than the reel seat so there s room for the tenons on the fore grip and the butt to seat.

The arbors are easy to shape. Emery paper will do but care must be taken because it is very easy to remove a lot of material with very little effort. I do not cut grooves or other "voids" to hold excess adhesive for added strength, I prep the surfaces of the parts
and make sure the adhesive is cured before I continue.

More food for thought.

Have fun

When reaming these, the results seem far more centered to me with a reamer small enough to go well down into or through the arbor before making purchase with the material.

Here is how you keep the rigid foam arbors centered when enlarging the bore. This video is a bit long so you might want to skip past the part where I use the lathe and focus on the part where I just use a hand drill.

[www.youtube.com]

............

Cutting grooves in arbors brings up a memory and conversation about this topic from an ICRBE event years ago.....

Ralph O'Quinn, father of Rod Bond, Perma Gloss, and other U40 products, shared that materials are strongest when bonded with a thin layer of adhesive on surfaces in a water-break-free condition. He shared at length how he had tested all manner of bonding techniques and materials when experimenting with laminates for military planes. What he outlines in his article is the same as what he shared with me and others gathered around him that day.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Ralph also shared that surface area contact is a huge key to adhesive strength when combined with a thin layer of adhesive. Grooves, he said, reduce the surface area contact, and the "troughs" actually make a weaker bond even though they have "more glue."

Ralph made a lot of sense to me that day. I was impressed that simply following Ralph's simple preparation protocols, and using poly arbors as-is, actually made for a stronger final product.

Grooves may not have much of an impact on the useful strength of a reel seat assembly as there is still enough bonding area for the majority of fishing conditions I recall him saying. "Why not do it the best way as proven by science?" I was sold. I lost my groove from them on.

One thing I do to prevent the squeegee effect is to bevel an 1/8to 1/4 inch of the leading arbor edge to direct epoxy around the arbor circumference (learned that from Tom). Sometimes, I first pre-wet the inside of the seat or tube with epoxy paste using a small spatula - just a thin coat - to make sure I am maxing out the surface area contact. I pre-wet the arbor, too, and slowly spin the arbor as I install it.

Epoxy Paste is absolutely the way to go, IMO.

Les brings up something that harkens back to my original intent with RodMaker Magazine. While the RodCrafters Journal was a great help to rod builders in the 70's and 80's, it often contained bad information. Both Dale and Dick would often remind builders that the information in the Journal wasn't necessarily fact checked for accuracy and that it should be taken for what it was - a journal by rod builders for rod builders. Fair enough.

Conversely with RodMaker, I intended to use my contacts in the industry (Ralph O'Quinn was one) and engineering fields to make sure that the information in the magazine did indeed represent correct information and best practices. I didn't publish something just because a rod builder submitted it. It had to pass the accuracy test and be vetted by people in that particular field of expertise. If it was an opinion, then it was presented as just that. But technical matters had to be correct. I do believe this is one of the reasons that RodMaker has been so successful all these years and continues to mail to over 13,000 custom rod builders every other month.

Here's a short version of Ralph's proudest moment (according to him). He was attending a RodCrafters seminar in the mid-90s and attempted to correct some bad information from one of the presenters regarding epoxy wrap finish. That attempt not only got him kicked out of that seminar, but banned from RodCrafter membership. To his dying day he asserted that it was his finest moment!

..........

Certainly not debating that surface area is king when it comes to bonding two things together. What I like about the idea of cutting grooves into an arbor, is the idea of a splined shaft. You see a lot of splined shafts in heavy duty rotational applications. Seems like it may offer benefits in that regard.

To better center bore an arbor with a reamer try using a reamer that is a close fit inside the bore of the arbor. Rotate it instead of using lengthwise strokes. Switch to a larger dia reamer as the bore opens up. Remember, twist ream, do not lengthwise ream.

Ernie,
So sorry - I just saw your question - How to cut the arbor???
You don't cut through the arbor - BTW - love your Cheese Doodle comment.
I score the arbor all the way around. Use a sharp or serrated knife - slightly score it - then snap off piece.
You can use the reel seat barrel as the leverage point if you wish - but they have to be scored first.
Herb

I've seen grooved shafts on larger drill bits in my work. Not sure why they designed them this way. Perhaps to save weight? Is it a stiffness-to-weight-to-diameter ratio to fit the drill? OR maybe they groove it for Less grip...so there is a bit of slippage....to lessen torque and shear forces where the bit or shaft connects? Make it easier to remove from a bearing? Some bits are square or polygon on the end. In any case, the bit is usually strong enough for the job - grooved or not. I hope my reel seat and rod are not rotating at high speeds and high torque if indeed grooved shafts are best for this situation. Ha!

Ralph convinced me of the reasons and rationale for his rod-building findings way back when. He learned the physics involved in the crucible of searching for the best materials and practices to produce laminate wings for cutting-edge military aircraft. No guessing at results allowed in that lab. If grooves/flutes/channels worked best for bonding an arbor to the blank and a reel seat, he would have said so. There were some in that group who advocated making "channels" in the blank surface, with coarse sanding, to increase the room and "grip" for epoxy. Ralph patiently explained why that was a very bad idea.

To groove or not to groove is not a question for me anymore.

Like many things, poly, drywall or masking tape, and even thread has its uses for shim-fitting parts together.

For me:

* Poly Arbors: Excellent range for a diversity of needs for I.D. and O.D. Light. Strong. Stiff. Easy to make it exactly what I need.

* Drywall Tape/Mesh: Range of use is excellent for up to three or four wraps (one wrap is around 0.01 in.). Open mesh allows very good contact with the blank. I have gone up to five wraps, but I am careful about ensuring the epoxy is penetrating the entire column of wrap down to the blank.

* Masking tape: (0.005 in. per wrap - half as thick as drywall tape). I never liked the idea that underneath the paper tape there was no epoxy bond to the blank - only the tape adhesive. However, it is very easy to use for small adjustments. If all sides are covered, strong enough from what others say. I'm going with drywall tape if at all possible....and have never used masking tape to be honest. Haven't needed to do so.

* Thread, size A: (0.0025 in. - half as thick as masking tape). Easy to use. Small adjustments are a snap off the spool or with a fly-tying bobbin. I use my thread wrapper if I want closed wraps. I don't use thread very often because I can get as close as I want and need with the above materials. Open wraps over drywall tape can help secure it in place without adding diameter (open spirals up and open spirals down - finish with a thread pull loop).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2024 11:36AM by Les Cline.

Sorry for the delayed response....

I was discussing the grooves and sharing the sketch of the arbor with Franko Suave. You may know Franko from his YouTube channel The Engineered Angler.
[www.youtube.com]
If you like building lures...its a great channel.

Any way...my comment to Franko about the grooves was this, "I was told that this would reduce the surface area and make the bond actually weaker.
(I actually think this increases the surface area)."

His reply was, "I agree with you...it is geometrically impossible to reduce surface area while adding surfaces. Your glue up will be much stronger.   Nice sketch too."

Now...I'll be honest. I dont think it really matters much at all, with or without the grooves.

Les...how can you even bring up the argument and then in the same post contradict yourself by saying, "One thing I do to prevent the squeegee effect is to bevel an 1/8to 1/4 inch of the leading arbor edge to direct epoxy around the arbor circumference (learned that from Tom)."
Isnt this kind of the same thing? Heck 1/4 inch is WAY more than 1/32 (if that) groove I'm cutting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/02/2024 10:36AM by Chris Catignani.

Chris,

The surface area that interfaces "directly" with the rod blank and reel seat is essential for the strongest bonds according to what I learned from Mr. O'Quinn. Grooves reduce direct contact area proportionate to their width and length.

But don't grooves increase surface area of an arbor? Yes! There is more total surface area if grooves or channels are cut in it. Adding the surface area of the 'side walls' and 'bottom' of the grooves add surface area...but I think you already know where I am going with this.

The extra surface area created by grooves is not in direct surface area contact with the blank or reel seat. The epoxy is mostly in contact with the arbor and itself, but not the reel seat and blank in my mind.

The unconnected layer of epoxy inside the groove does not add adhesive nor shearing strength to the blank nor reel seat - it reduces it. Ralph explained to our little group that grooves are like rivets when bonding two materials. (See Ralph's article.) More glue does not make a stronger bond.

Maxing the amount of direct contact between interfacing surfaces is a major pillar of Ralph's discoveries, IMO. Max direct interface and water-break-free surface prep, are the Cliff Notes of Ralph's findings on this subject as I understand them. Max contact surface areas, bonded together, spread the load of force over a wider surface area - resisting both shear and adhesive failure the most. Rivets and grooves do not.

I have not tested any of this myself. Straight up, I trusted Mr. O'Quinn tested all this out with high tech, scientific equipment under real world conditions - and generously shared what he discovered in layman's terms. I lean on his credibility, not my own in this case.

Please trust Franko and grooving arbors if it makes sense to you. I wonder how Franko knows grooving arbors makes them stronger? Experience? Common Sense? Testing? Heard it from someone else he trusts? Just curious. Not a my source vs. your source fight.

The two men that joined our ad hoc discussion at that EXPO (maybe in 2011?) passionately argued their own common sense and experiences with grooving arbors as superior. Their evidence that grooving was superior: 1.) They had never had a failure on one of their shop's rods and 2.) it really appealed to their customers. How can anyone argue against their own results?! Ralph did not try.

Ralph calmly shared his own experiences, background, and lab-tested findings and left it at that. They eventually walked away, unconvinced. There was nothing more to say either way. (Ironically, I think Ralph's way would have had the same perfect results and saved these men the production time of all that filing.. If I recall, their grooves were perpendicular to their arbors and not parallel with them.)

Don't mess with another person's living, right? I won't.

What would have been killer would have been an EXPO cage match, with brightly colored capes, fierce Lucha Masks, and scientific testing equipment in an octagon topped with barbed wire and troughs of flame. A blind test so no one knew which rods have grooves in the arbors! The Grumble In the Grooved Jungle! Laaaaadies and Geeentlemen.....Are you ready????? Bookies taking cash bets hand over fist. Celebrity fishers ringside.

Not sure if results would have convinced anyone one way or another (bouts are rigged, ya know!)....but fun to watch in my mind. My money would be on "O'Quinn the Conqueror!"

Yes, making a bevel at the leading edge of an arbor does reduce its surface area. If this is seen as self-contradictory, I take your point and accept that to a degree. The bevel is a little trick I learned to ensure a more even spread of epoxy over the surface area of my non-grooved arbors as they are installed inside the reel seat before reaming to fit the blank - trying to hit that elusive %100 contact all around with the reel seat, arbor and rod. In my defense, a small bevel at the leading edge is much less of a surface area reduction than full-length grooves....and I can add a bit extra length to the arbor to account for the bevel if I feel that is necessary. Squeegeeing out epoxy (with a close fitting and flat arbor end) resulting in all surface areas not-wetted out is the greater concern for me. Two surfaces un-bonded are of zero benefit, grooved or not.

So, ironically, with a little beveling, I attempt to increase contact surface area by reducing it just a smidge. Touche! Well played! A fair point!

To be honest, if you slapped a Lucha mask over my head on the lake and handed me two rods, one with grooved arbors and one without, I doubt I could practically tell the difference for the range of fish I commonly encounter - fish that are not likely to input enough torque and stress on the reel seat-arbor-blank interface to break it loose. Put those rods on a lab grade-torque device, and I think one would prevail over the other. My comments are more about adding to the learning and conversation of current "best practices" and who's theories can claim the title Belt of "Strongest Bond."

Recalling that day at the EXPO with Ralph, I could not let this subtopic go without sharing the findings of a brilliant and principled man....which everyone can also know through his article on Surface Preparation.

Les Cline Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The epoxy is mostly in contact with the arbor and itself, but not the reel seat and blank in my mind.

What makes you think the epoxy is NOT in contact with the reel seat? Thats the whole point of groove.
As a matter of fact, its quite common to completely encase an arbor in epoxy.

The whole point of a groove is to make sure all the epoxy is not squeegeed away on a tight-fitting arbor.

Everything you said about Ralph I can equally say about Dale Clemons.
He mentions grooving arbors in his book Advanced Rod Building. He goes into great detail (p50) on glueing up handles and arbors.

> "I trusted Mr. O'Quinn tested all this out with high tech, scientific equipment under real world conditions "
Say what you will about Ralph and his theory...but at the end of the day its just that...a theory. No white paper...no test results.
I've read many articles by Ralph but none about grooved arbors.

If the inside of the seat and the outside of the arbor are both covered with epoxy, that's as strong as it gets.

Hope you guys don't mind if I offer my thoughts on what's being discussed, as well as some anecdotal experience?

When you groove the surface of an arbor, and fill the voids completely with epoxy, only the surface area of the arbor has been reduced, not the surface area of the epoxy. So the surface area of the epoxy in contact with the inside of say, a reel seat, remains the same. Regardless of the width and depth of the grooves.

The width and depth of the grooves cut into the arbor increase the total surface area of the arbor, but not the area that comes in contact with the inside of the reel seat. So at least how I see it. Cutting grooves in the arbor neither increases, nor decreases the surface area of epoxy in contact with the reel seat.

But it does increase the strength of the assembly from a resistance to rotation stand point. As I mentioned in my prior post this thread. Shafts with splines are routinely used, even necessary in assemblies that have high rotational force loads. Additionally. I would think they they would increase resistance in moving longitudinally as well. The bonding surface of the epoxy at its' OD remains unchanged because of the grooves, but the total surface area longitudinally, increases.

As for the anecdotal experience I mentioned. We build large industrial air handlers for pharmaceutical manufactures, hospitals, universities, etc ... at my place of employment. Units that flow anywhere from 5,000 - 85,000 cubic feet of air per minute. We use rivets extensively in their construction. Some smaller, some larger than others, but the majority of them require a #11 drill bit to drill a hole to accept the rivet. So about a 3/16" diameter rivet body. There are instances on almost every unit, where a component of the unit obstructs the ability to place a rivet where two different parts of the unit join together. In those instances we use a silicone caulk/ adhesive. And I know, silicone caulk isn't the type of adhesive being discussed here, It doesn't have the structural strength that Rod Bond has.

None the less, it is an adhesive, and when two parts are joined together with it, they are very difficult to get apart, with out damaging something.But ..... it can be done. Add a rivet to the equation, and the shear force is increased monumentally. If you don't remove the rivet, you aren't getting the parts apart without severely damaging one, or both of the joined pieces. Like I said, silicone caulk is not on the level as structural adhesive. but a rivet adds quite a bit of shear resistance. As a team leader and instructor, I question our engineers at times, about calling for the use of rivets in places that I myself, would use a bolt. Some will agree with me and approve the change, other times they'll tell me that rivets are more than adequate.

I've seen evidence of how unexpectedly strong riveting something together can be, Some of our units are very large. 13' tall, 45' wide, and up to 100' long. Of course they're built in sections or we'd never get them out of the building. Anyway, 6 or 7 years ago, trucks were taking one of our units to Philadelphia for Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. He got separated from the pack of trucks with other sections of the unit, and somehow ended up on the Garden State Parkway. I've been "down the shorwa" and traveled the Garden State Parkway to get there. A lot of low clearance signs ahead of the bridges. Well ........... guy goes under the bridge and the unit section chained to the trailer, didn't. At least not in the same condition it was in before he tried to go under the bridge. The story made the national news because it had both directions of the parkway closed down for 5 - 6 hours.

They brought what was left of the section of unit back to us to rebuild. LOL Not much left really, but some of the wall panels were still in the sill bolted to the pan, And they are held in my rivets. You could tell that they were panels that impacted the bridge, by the type of damage they had. So yeah. Rivets are pretty dang strong against sheer forces.


Anyhow...... that's all I got. I'll be giving the grooved arbor thing a try. Whether it proves to be any stronger I doubt I'll ever know. I mean if you think about it, the surface contact area of meshed drywall tape is way less than that of a poly urethane arbor, and from all accounts, it's just as strong. Perhaps stronger?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2024 02:16PM by David Baylor.

Good story David...

I want to backtrack a little and share an article by Ralph O'quinn from RodMaker (issue unknown).
In the article about myths, he has a section Gouging and Scratching of Surfaces Will Make The Adhesive Hold Better ~ False.
Here he republishes part of an article from RodMaker Volume 5 issue 2.
He goes over his thoughts on preparing surfaces to bond.
[www.u-40.com]