Yes maybe take the conversation away from things that many think are vibrating and use sinkers, plastic worms, etc as the lure being retrieved. We know they can be felt in open water due to water drag and along the bottom as they are dragged over contours, rocks, etc but in none of these situations are they vibrating. Only thing I can figure there is that they have the good end of the lever.

There are three ways I can think of to impart vibrations to a rod. One is to bounce or strum the tip so it oscillates freely. This should rarely occur during fishing since the varying pull of a line would either not be at a velocity to do it without also damping the rebound. The second would be to strike the rod mechanically. This has nothing to do with a fishing scenario and isn’t so good for rods. The last would be to have sonic pressure waves act on the rod. This would only have something to do with fishing if you listen to your music really loud when out on the water.

On my best days, with my best setups, I feel bass in the act of inhaling a lure and the water around it. Most often this is when fishing smaller jerkbaits and being on the game enough to stop them with just the right slack. Other times it’s with a drop shot. Rarely it’s with lightly or unweighted plastics because these are not often useful rigs where I live. I’ve fished with walleye guys who were really good at this with jigs. I couldn’t match their consistency (the best walleye guys have absolutely mad bite detection skills), but was getting better. My point is that none of these sensitivity for detecting a bite scenarios involve vibration, but subtle tensioning through line and a lever arm (I believe it’s a third order one, Tom, but not completely sure). Anything snapping a rod hard enough to create vibrations is going to be obvious on a Snoopy rod.

Tom, I assume that you're referencing a post I made in response to your post to me containing this line "The fantasy is believing that inputing signals into a rod tip via a speaker, Adams Apple, etc., etc., are in any way similar to what's going on when you retrieve a lure through the water with a rod. The two are not the same."

I no longer see that post. Any idea where it went?

Wish I would have copied it before posting it. That way I'd have a copy to post again.

As I said in that missing post in reference to the "Adam's Apple test" I have never said any such thing.

Anyhow .............. in answer to your question, hy do those vibrations become increasingly stronger felt when you raise the rod tip higher and higher?" Because of increased leverage Tom.

I've said it over and over that a longer lever is more sensitive to input on it's end than a shorter lever. Longer rod, shorter rod. I have never debated that EVER. As I said in my now missing post. I have even spoke about minute (pronounced my noot, it's a heteronym) differences in guide weight has a greater affect because it is leveraged weight.

I use 2x4's as levers at work to move 2,000 lb coils into position. I know a longer 2x4 makes moving them easier. I understand the mechanical advantage of a longer lever.

I just preformed my own practical test. The surface of the cheapy Wal Mart table I have my computer sitting on, has a slightly textured surface. When I drag my thumb nail across it, I hear sound. And what is sound? And what causes that sound? Is it the cadenced resistance of my thumb nail dragging across the table's surface? And what connects my ear to the cadenced resistance of my thumb nail dragging across the table's surface? Air.

The cadenced resistance of my thumb nail across the table's surface has caused the air to vibrate. If it hadn't, then I wouldn't be able to hear it, would I?

A question for you ....... do you deny that the cadenced resistance caused by a lure being dragged along the bottom, or pulled through the water, causes the line to enter a state of oscillation? And when an object is in the state of oscillation, what is it doing?

Cause and effect, chain of events.

We are using leverage to feel the oscillation of the line. They feel like vibrations because that is exactly what they are. A hearing aide makes it easier to hear vibrations in the air. A longer rod makes it easier to feel vibrations in your line.

If anyone remembers what Will Smith's character in Independence Day said just as he and Jeff Goldblum's character left the alien mother ship on their way back to Earth., then you'll know what I'm thinking ....


Have fun guys ............

A thumbnail across a table does not replicate what is taking place in a fishing situation. That's not a practical test regarding fishing rod sensitivity..

No, the line does not enter a state of oscillation. But at least you are now reasoning that the longer the rod, the more strongly you feel whatever it is, due to the lever effect. In other words as I've been saying for decades, a longer rod is a more sensitive rod.

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Good luck with this Dave, Happy Thanksgiving. I also have posts go away at times.

Lynn,

Check Alex's post a few days ago about page management.

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So a lot of the people formally saying sensitivity was about material, weight, frequency etc. etc have now come around to saying that sensitivity really is about rod length.

But at least you are now reasoning that the longer the rod, the more strongly you feel whatever it is, due to the lever effect.

Perhaps you missed this ...... below is a direct quote from my post to this thread on November 25, 2024. at 6:38 PM

"Once again I have said this in past threads, but it bears repeating.. Just like we use our ears to hear, we use leverage to feel. Increased leverage allows us to feel those vibrations to a greater degree. That is why when you put the two rods that were laying on the floor at the beginning of this post, to use ..... the longer rod, by way of its' increased leverage, will be more sensitive to that input"

And sorry that you didn't understand that my thumb nail across the table top wasn't a direct comparison to what happens in a fishing situation. I never said, nor intended it to be a practical test regarding fishing rod sensitivity. It was intended to demonstrate that just like the cadenced resistance of my thumb nail being dragged across the table causes the air to vibrate.

That the cadenced resistance of your jig being dragged across the bottom causes the line to oscillate. You say the line isn't oscillating when you drag your jig across a gravel bottom? So if I go out and drag my jig across the surface of my concrete driveway, which is a direct comparison to a fishing situation, that the cadenced resistance of the jig dragging across the surface won't cause the line to enter a state of oscillation?

If the line isn't in a state of oscillation, then what is it in the state of? I can see it shaking? Quivering. Is it not in motion in alternately opposite directions from the position of equilibrium?

Vibration : 1a : a periodic motion of the particles of an elastic body or medium in alternately opposite directions from the position of equilibrium when that equilibrium has been disturbed (as when a stretched cord produces musical tones or molecules in the air transmit sounds to the ear)

b : the action of vibrating : the state of being vibrated or in vibratory motion: such as (1): oscillation. (2) : a quivering or trembling motion : quiver

Let’s think about the most subtle bite detection scenarios. As an avid angler and professional fisheries biologist, I believe it’ usually one of two. It’s s when a fish inhales a bait or fly and the water around it and readily spits it out because the taste, tension, or texture at first contact is wrong. The other is when a fish subtly mouths a bait or fly and holds static as it decides whether to ingest it. These are obviously non-moving scenarios. Can anyone think of more subtle bite scenarios? Which of these, or ones I’ve missed, are going to impart a vibration to a rod?

Has anyone said that everything that happens in a fishing scenario causes the line to oscillate? I know I certainly never have.

And as I have spoke of in the past when talking about the rods I counter weight so they are tip light. I tip light rod makes it easier to weigh your line. A longer rod also allows you to sense changes in the weight more easily. I have caught some very nice bass by sensing a change in the weight of the line. And it's not always by a sense of more weight on the line, it's also by a sense of less weight on the line. Both of those scenarios are more easily felt with a longer rod.

Let me ask this ........ what about the crispness of what we feel through our rods? Is the crispness of what we feel with our rods a component of the rods sensitivity? I sure think it is. Will a longer rod feel more crisp than a shorter rod? I mean there are those that are saying it doesn't matter what the rod is made of, graphite, fiberglass, wood, that the longer rod will be more sensitive.

So if I say that I can feel things more crisply with a rod I have built on an MB 725 C6O2 blank, than I can on a rod I have built on an SW 764 Delta blank, am I just imagining it? Or is that not a fair comparison?

Let's not forget ..... there was a post earlier that mentioned that some people thought a wooden stick was as sensitive as a graphite rod, in the Adam's Apple test that someone other than I, mentioned?

Eric,
Have you read the M&Ms? Might answer some of your questions. Simple use vs results stuff mostly however. Volume 3 is for spinning rods.

“Crispness” is an interesting concept that I believe has some relevance. I never heard about it in the physics courses I took and didn’t find a suitable definition. Thus, I’m going to preliminarily define it as low weight per lineal unit of blank, with some kind of rigidity factor added. The rigidity factor is where I’m uncertain. Stiffer would seem most sensitive, but rod companies that I respect are putting a little more flex in their tip sections on extra fast blanks to assist in bite detection. I’m guessing this is to address the human factor by helping to interpret what’s a real bite rather than bottom contact or lure action.

What you feel on a fishing rod from lure is resistance and/or drag. What you feel on a fishing rod from a fish is effort. In both scenarios the longer the rod (lever) the more you'll feel either the lure or the fish. That's the long and short of it (no pun intended). Therefore a longer rod is a more sensitive rod.

...............

The materials used in the construction of the rods, line, and weights we use, can and will affect the crispness of what we feel.

Tungsten weights offer a more crisp feel when you drag them across the bottom, than a corresponding size, lead weight. ( pronounced led, another heteronym) Fluorocarbon mono filament lines offer a more crisp feel than nylon mono filament lines. Braided lines offer a more crisp feel than fluorocarbon mono filament lines. And graphite rods offer a more crisp feel than fiberglass rods.

And to revisit the idea that the cadenced resistance of a bait being pulled through the water, or being dragged along the bottom, does not cause the line to enter a state of oscillation, does not cause the line to vibrate ..... I'll offer yet another example

The following is a copy and paste from Britannica.com, under the headings, Science > Physics > Matter and Energy.

"Vibrations fall into two categories: free and forced. Free vibrations occur when the system is disturbed momentarily and then allowed to move without restraint. A classic example is provided by a weight suspended from a spring. In equilibrium, the system has minimum energy and the weight is at rest. If the weight is pulled down and released, the system will respond by vibrating vertically.

The vibrations of a spring are of a particularly simple kind known as simple harmonic motion (SHM). This occurs whenever the disturbance to the system is countered by a restoring force that is exactly proportional to the degree of disturbance. In this case, the restoring force is the tension or compression in the spring, which (according to Hooke’s law) is proportional to the displacement of the spring. In simple harmonic motion, the periodic oscillations are of the mathematical form called sinusoidal."

Rather than post the entire listing, I will just add a link to the article [www.britannica.com]

And I hope nobody tries to say that the example of a spring isn't in any way representative of what happens when you're dragging your bait across the bottom. If you can't see how the two examples are causing the same effect, then there is no need on my part, to continue this conversation.

Cause and effect. Chain of events

What Britannica is describing is not what happens at the end of a fishing rod.

"Crispness" in a rod is a function of rod "speed."

Earlier, Kendall mentioned that a fishing rod is a 3rd order lever. This is only true from the fishermen's end. From the fish or lure's end, it is a 2nd order lever, which is really the crux of the entire sensitivity issue.

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At least we both agree that a longer rod gives the fish more leverage, and not the angler.

Trying to convince some of my fellow tournament anglers of that fact is more than reminiscent to what we have going on here.

Or had going on here ..... I eventually gave up with a couple of those guys too.

Enjoy your Thanksgiving Tom

A longer rod not only gives the leverage advantage to the fish, but also to anything else on the end of your line as well.

I'm glad I didn't give up on Emory Harry. It wasn't that his examples and physics were wrong - just that those particular ones weren't applicable to fishing rod sensitivity. Once he grasped that fact, he changed his mind about what makes one rod more sensitive than another.

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Tom, it's clear that you have great respect for Emory Harry, and that your saying that once he grasped the concepts that you presented him, he changed his mind, is not meant in a derogatory fashion. What I am about to say is said in that same fashion.

First, my contention with you is with your saying that what we feel through our fishing rods, are not vibrations. Rod length has zero to do with whether what we are feeling with our rods, are or aren't vibrations. It is all about whether or not the cadenced resistance of a bait being dragged along the bottom, or in the case of a spinnerbait or other such bait being pulled through the water, is causing the line to oscillate. Oscillation is a vibratory motion. That is not my definition, but the definition of people much smarter than either one of us.

In an earlier post to this thread I posed a question to you. "do you deny that the cadenced resistance caused by a lure being dragged along the bottom, or pulled through the water, causes the line to enter a state of oscillation?" Your reply was, "No, the line does not enter a state of oscillation."

I have presented definitions, excerpts from physics articles, and examples of real world fishing examples to support my contention that the cadenced resistance of the lure is causing the line to oscillate. i.e. vibrate. I've also offered other examples that were not fishing related, in hopes of presenting an example that might help to visualize what I have been contending all along.

It's clear by any definition, that the cadenced resistance of a lure has upset the equilibrium of the line, and that the line is vibrating as a result of trying to return to equilibrium.

In your above post concerning Emory Harry you said "It wasn't that his examples and physics were wrong"

My physics are not wrong. And as more than a few of the examples I presented were real world fishing situations, that spoke to the effect a lure has on the line it is connected to, they have been entirely applicable.

So as you spoke above about Mr Harry, once you grasp that fact, perhaps you'll change your mind and realize that any time the cadenced resistance of a lure is present, that we are in fact, feeling vibrations with a fishing rod.

To close I am adding another link. It's title may come off as being condescending, but I assure you it is in no way, meant to be. I offer it only because it may help to illustrate where I am coming from in this conversation. Please read it. It's a very short read.

[www.abc.net.au]

David,

Debating whether the line oscillates or not isn't really pertinent to the issue of sensitivity. So too have been the many "tests" with frequency meters, speakers, Adams apples, etc., etc., all attempting to measure "vibrations" which are introduced to the rod and then travel down the rod to the angler's hand. Trouble is, none of these replicate an actual fishing situation. So what good are they? This entire conversation, and all those preceding it, have been about fishing rod sensitivity - what makes one rod more sensitive than another. Attempting to get into minutia as to what it is that we actually feel from a lure or fish (vibrations, oscillations, resistance, drag, etc) only skirts the original issue which has always been - what makes one rod more sensitive than another?

So let's get back to that original discussion as to what makes one rod more sensitive than another (in an actual fishing situation). At this point you seem to agree, and have stated, that a longer rod enables you to better feel "whatever" is going on at the end of the line, than does a shorter rod due to the lever mechanics involved. That's the entire ballgame in a nutshell. So a longer rod is more sensitive than a shorter rod. And that has been my contention for decades and in every single one of these discussions.


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At this point .........

Yes, at this point a change of topic away from what you and I have been discussing here, while telling, is definitely a wise choice.

Have a nice day ......