A lot of good discussion here. One thing not mentioned was the damping power of water and it's effect on a submerged oscillating spring. While fishing line is not a spring unless you are still using the same mono you spooled in 2004, spring oscillation damping in water is quite significant, to the extent that water often critically dampens spring oscillation of a submerged spring. I don't expect fishing line to be immune to the damping effects and since a spring is often critically dampened, I don't see how it would be possible for a taut line to resist the damping effects of the water we use it in. I don't think it's worth citing but this can be easily looked up if you want to geek out on black friday for a bit. That all said, the ability to detect line oscillation through water is probably a weak one at best.

I think what is missing here is a deeper discussion on the stick slip effect, and the rod blank deflection and rebound from overcoming the frictional force to move an object through the water, be it a crankbait (a constant oscillating frictional force, where the two bodies are the the bait combating water resistance as it moves) or dragging a jig over rocks (inconsistent and variable direct frictional force between two bodies, the bait and the bottom).

While the crankbait (or spinnerbait) doesn't experience stick slip in the traditional sense, it does have a native oscillating force created by the bait design resisting water on a retrieve that can be detected through your hand while fishing. If that oscillation of force is disrupted by a stump, rock, or a fish - the blank body or tip that rebounds/deflects the most during the disruption will likely be considered to be "more sensitive". This is why so many people did/still do revere the old Loomis spinnerbait blanks that were all graphite, and sensitive enough to detect that your #1 or #2 willow blades had stopped turning. If you think those spinnerbait blanks no longer exist, you should try fishing #1 or #2 willow blades on an NFC MB736 HM or MB735 HM blank.

For fishing a jig or any other bottom oriented technique, stick slip effect is likely dominant in transferring energy from the bait to the rod during the stick slip process. As you pull a bait over a large rock, the "sticking" forces increase depending on the size of the rock and the surface texture, then once the bait is pulled to a tangential region of the angle of your line to the rock surface, the "slip" effect will release the energy loaded up on the "sticking" side of the object. That release is felt through deflection/rebound of the tip and or body of the blank, resulting in the angler feeling the force cycle and interpreting it as the bottom. One could argue that the release of energy during the slip will create an oscillating effect that is transmitted through the rod blank during the rebound (when the force on the blank is released), can't argue with that. However the magnitude of the blank deflection and rebound from the slip cycle is what you are actually feeling when "feeling the bottom". This should not be associated with line oscillation in any way. The only potential oscillation felt is from the rod blank rebounding from the release of force during the slip of the stick slip process.

When a fish tries to eat your stationary bait, you are "feeling" the effects of blank deflection & rebound by force, sometimes applied rapidly as the fish tries to orient the bait in its mouth for digestion or to move it away from other fish. I.e. the fish is applying force to your lure which puts a force on the line, which puts a force on your rod blank resulting in blank deflection & rebound, which is translated to your hand.

The force you will feel is greater when the lever is longer, and arguably on a longer rod blank, the tip section often have improved deflection/rebound properties that help translate the force to your hands. This strongly supports the longer lever model for "higher sensitivity", or in more rod blank terms - improved deflection & rebound properties are likely found with longer rod blanks. Although I want to leave blank material & taper out of this discussion, they are strong independent variables that heavily influence the deflection & rebound that is experienced through dragging/pulling/winding an object through a stick slip system.

David,

I don't know what it would be telling - other than that you are now saying that whatever is going on at the end of the line is more strongly felt on a longer rod than a shorter one, which has been my contention all along. (Perhaps it has also been yours but if so I wasn't aware of it earlier.) The topic of the thread regards sensitivity. That's what I've been discussing.

.............

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> Lynn,
>
> Check Alex's post a few days ago about page
> management.
>
> ............

Rather than having me chase my tail looking for what Alex said about page management, could you link to it, or quote him? If indeed it does explain why posts sometimes disappear. Thanks, Lynn

Ken, you're absolutely right. Water will definitely damp oscillations occurring in the line. And I definitely considered that. I mean heck, water is far more dense than air, so its' damping effect on line oscillation is much greater. In air, as in the example I gave when I drag a jig across my concreted drive way. I can see the line quivering. Highly unlikely, even impossible to see if the line were surrounded by water.

And the damping that occurs in the line itself is also a factor I considered. I mentioned in an earlier post how different line types affect the crispness of what we feel with our rods. Drag a crankbait on a nylon mono filament line 100' behind your boat, and the same crankbait on 100' of braided line behind your boat, and it's clear that line types have different damping properties.

I'm curious if you read the link I provided in one of my more recent posts to this thread? This one? [www.abc.net.au]

As I said in that prior post, what is contained in that link, illustrates where I am coming from in this lengthy discussion

That is a very informative article you linked, David. My AWE factor about the physical world increased after reading it. Part 2 is also great!

One thing the article stated that stuck with me is that the physical principles at work pushing a child on a swing are the same for all vibration, oscillation, and frequency resonance phenomenon from lasers to lake waves, MRI machines, and String Theory. I imagine the conditions may change and play their part (such as at the bottom of the ocean or in a perfect vacuum), but the physics remain the same.

The physics of levers apply universally, too. Are the physics of Vibration, Oscillation and Resonant Frequency at odds with the physics of Levers? I would think not.

Definitions of Terms seems a major part of scientific (and rod-building) discovery and discussion. There may be no major argument in the science community about what a "vibration" or "oscillation" or "cadenced resistance" means. I don't know if there is an argument about it or not or how these terms may be different from one another. The definition of vibration seems clear to me and is found in multiple sources.

Accepting common terms is a challenge. Identifying the same question to answer is a challenge. The combat of ideas is rather invigorating, nonetheless.

Would it be so hard to take this discussion to a university Physics Dept. and ask some questions? I can't imagine the physical properties of tubes of various materials under various conditions has been ignored by the scientific community. Introducing some questions for discovery concerning a billion dollar industry might be intriguing.

Les, what got me thinking about the type of information in that article, was the distinct tick you get when your bait falls onto a hard surface. There's no cadenced resistance of a bait being pulled through the water, or you jig being dragged over a gravel bottom, yet we feel a very distinct tick. That tick is impact energy being transferred to your line. You don't feel it when you bait hits a soft surface, because the soft surface absorbs some of that energy. The rest gets damped out by the line.

I was researching energy transfer between two connected mediums, when I initally stumbled onto that link. It took me a while to find it again, or I would have posted it earlier in this thread. Honestly, before I read it for the first time, it had never crossed my mind that a simple transfer of energy would cause a vibration. I was just researching energy transfer so I could pose a question in an earlier thread, asking why we are able feel the impact of a weight on a hard surface, when all it is doing is stopping.

Like you, I found the information in that link quite eye opening. To be honest, I've never read part 2, thoroughly. I've just skimmed through it, but I'll be sure to read it thoroughly

As far as definition of terms being important, I wholeheartedly agree. If both parties aren't talking about the same thing, then the chances of a consensus, are slim to none.

I also agree that the physics of vibration, oscillation, and resonant frequency, are not at odds with the physics of levers. The physics of levers is quite simple. The physics of vibration, and oscillation, are much more subtle. Almost mysterious.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/30/2024 05:21PM by David Baylor.

Les, you live in a state (if I’m remembering correctly from your past posts) with at least one great physics department. I took courses from them while studying at KSU. I see one of my favorite professors, who worked in that department, passed recently at 90 years old. Do you ever fish Wilson Reservoir? I used to work in fisheries there.

Anyway, I absolutely believe that some level of vibrations are present in a fishing rod. Nearly every material or object slightly vibrates. A blank experiences wind, water current, lure feedback, reel and line related signals, and fish bites. The first question is how often is a bite going to set up vibrations meaningfully different from the other sources? The second is how strong of a signal would this be in comparison to what the lever arm provides? I believe it’s very rare that vibrations from a bite are going to provide useful sensory input to the angler, and seldom would that be anything but fractionally (really small ones) as noticeable as lever arm related inputs.

Kendall,

I grew up in, and still live near, Olathe, Kansas. If you know about Kansas State University, you probably know of Olathe (pronounced 'O-lay'-tha.' A town of around 150K in Northeast Kansas and part of the larger Kansas City Metro Area for those not familiar with Kansas towns. There is also a Kansas City, Missouri across the river.) I grew up fishing mostly Hillsdale, Clinton, Pomona, Perry, and Melvern Lakes (and associated rivers and tailwaters). I have not fished Wilson, unfortunately. Tuttle Creek is having some silting and flooding issues in the news.

Nice to meet someone familiar with Kansas fisheries. Surprisingly good smallmouth and walleye water around here - as you know.

K-State does have a very good physics and engineering department! I need to check into how to find a connection there! Good suggestion!

As I sit here thinking about how I feel a "bite" it strikes me that it happens in several ways. Some I would describe as lever arm related, some vibration or oscillation related, and some as sensory neutral related. My take:

1. The Tic: This is a sudden and sharp sensation like someone flicked my line with their finger. Plucking a guitar string. A Pulse of feeling. It happens all at once. This is often followed by a 'dead' or slack feeling on the line - tensionless. As I understand it, this is the result of a fish flaring its gills to inhale the water around my bait which also draws my bait into its mouth. It's the sudden and rapid change in velocity of the lure that produces that Pulse. In watching underwater videos, it is astounding how fast fish can inhale (and exhale) their prey. The Tic may also be from the bait hitting the inside of their mouth at a rather high velocity. The stronger the Tic, the less I fool around and wait to set the hook. Strong, single Thumps mean a good fish, IME. This bite happens with jigs and other slow mo baits, but I have felt it with cranks and spoons plenty of times, too. I suppose this could be a single oscillation rather than multiples of them.?

Sometimes, there are multiple, individual tics (mostly with jigs and soft bottom contact or swim baits) which I have associated with small fish pecking at the bait....however, this is not always the case with smallmouth or when I am fishing a 10-inch worm for largies. Then, the multiple tics may be signaling the fish is eating the bait in multiple steps. Catch. Control. Position. Swallow. Tic Tic...Tic.......Tic.

2. The Wet Sock: Resistance occurs without any Tic or line movement. I gently lift my rod tip to increase the tension and test for clues of a fish bite versus moss or branch or old fishing line. Often, I will feel the fish headshake in response to my tensioning like being in a tug-of-war with a dog and a rag. The line is often moving at this point - even if just a few inches. Jigs and bottom baits. I call these "lay-on bites" with winter crappie. Frequently with cranks when the rod just starts to load up.

3. The Slow Motion Swim Off: The line starts moving. Sometimes faster than others. Sometimes, it is so slow, I will double check it is not the wind or waves moving the line. The super slow bites happen mostly in cold water conditions and with bottom contact baits like senkos. I tighten up and watch my rod tip....when it starts to deflect a bit it is go time. In warmer water, the swim off is usually faster and preceded with that little Tic. Either way, I am watching my line more than feeling the take.

4. The Reverse Bite: Instead of feeling the bite, I suddenly don't feel anything at all. Like others have described, the "vibration" of the lure, or the lure/line weight/tension (as David described), goes Numb. Nothing. Like my line broke. My line may even slack out for a moment. Ironically, when this happens, I KNOW a fish has my bait - and I start reeling like mad to catch up with the fish. Funny how a non-bite can be a sure bite for me. Can happen with almost any bait.

5. The Flinch. My slack line is floating on the water and I see it twitch, and send out tiny waves. A visual bite. No feeling but my eyes are seeing the waves moving away from the line. Same if I am fishing for spring crappie with a cork - the cork flinches or bounces sharply but does not go under the water. Ripples in the water make a ring around the cork. A sure bite that I reel down on quickly.

I don't fish a lot of "vibrating" baits, or baits that cause vibration when moved, on a regular basis - though I would count jigs with trailers and worms that wiggle and wave among them as sending signals I can often feel. A Jackhammer feels like a jackhammer to me these days. Many of my list of fish bites can absolutely be associated with the lever arm effect being part of bite detection. No argument there. I think the lever arm effect can enhance my feeling a vibration - but I sometimes see vibrations rather than feel them (like putting a resonating tuning fork into a bowl of water - the energy release moves the water around.)

I'm on the look out for a reputable physicist to define terms commonly accepted in the scientific community around all these definitions of terms. The best would be if she or he also fishes! At least I'll be smarter for the conversation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/04/2024 01:18PM by Les Cline.

Kendall? At the very end of your post you say, lever arm related inputs? Do you say that to mean the importance of the lever arm affect in detecting a change from one moment, to the next? That's how I'm interpreting it. Would I be correct in that interpretation?

No doubts the lever arm affect plays a major role in bite detection. But as Les' list shows, not all bites are of the type where the lever arm affect, feeling the bite, is the way we detect a bite. Or maybe it's better to say, recognize a bite? As you said, and as Les' list shows, some of the inputs from a bite can be so subtle, that I believe it comes down to recognizing that something has changed.

Unless you have your rod pointed directly at the bait, the lever arm affect is ever present.

In the case of the type of bite that Les listed as the reverse bite, where there is just a change in the weight of the line. the lever arm affect plays a major role in recognizing that something has changed. With the type of bite that Les terms the slow motion swim off, something may have happened that the lever arm affect alerted us to, but it is subtle that we couldn't recognize it. It wasn't until we could visually detect a change, that we know we have gotten a bite.

There are days where I am really in tune with what is happening with my bait. Or at least what I think is happening with my bait. Those are inevitably the days I catch more, and sometimes, bigger fish. But they also seem to be days that I set the hook into a lot of things that aren't fish. Or set the hook into nothing at all.

Les, I chuckled a bit while reading your description of the tic tic tic kind of bite. I chuckled because it reminded me of a day I was fishing with my dad. Dad was in the front of the boat that day, and I was in the back. He pitched his worm out to the end of a dead fall laying in the water, and I saw is line jump, the jump again, and then again. Just like when a bluegill is pecking at your bait. I said "Dad, you gonna set the hook on that fish?" His reply ..."David, it's a bluegill" He reels in and pitches right back to the same spot. I'm watching and see the line jump two times, just as it did before. I said, "Dad, set the hook" He gives me this look. Set the hook and low and behold, a 5 lb largemouth comes flying out of the water. LOL

Now I gotta admit. I would have said the same thing to him about it being a bluegill. Especially because when he pitched in the second time, he got the same kind of bite. You can pretty much count on that happening when it's a small fish. Not so much if it were a bigger fish. Or at least because I didn't get a bite again, I figured it was a bigger fish. Like you said though .... different story if I'm fishing for smallmouth. I fish a lot of craw baits for smallmouth, and because of past experience and evidence, I usually associate a tic tic tic bite with a small fish trying to disarm the craw by pulling off it's pincers. And it's usually the case, but not always. My favorite type of bite when I'm fishing for smallmouth, is when they practically rip the rod out of your hand. Because I pretty much know that there's more than one fish down there.

As far as finding a physicist to answer some questions. This forum has a member that is a physicist, or at least teaches physics at Kent State University here in northeast Ohio. Joe Vanfossen. I've met Joe. He was the person that got me into rod building. Really good guy. I just checked, and his e mail isn't hidden. I will send him an e mail, and mention the name of this thread, and mention that there are folks that would love to get his take on what is being discussed here. I know I'd like to get his take on what I've been saying here.

Les, I grew up in Ellsworth and have four family members living in Olathe. I roomed with guys from the Gardner area at KSU. After doing my undergraduate work there I moved to Missoula for grad school. After nearly fifteen years in the Rockies and PNW, I went back to the Midwest for ten years in the BWCAW and Duluth areas of Minnesota. Then it was back to the Western US where I still work and reside. I’ve lived and worked fisheries in great areas and Kansas is highly underrated for its diversity and quality. On top of that, Olathe sits in a great area for a traveling to places like Table Rock, Greers Ferry (dozens more MO, AR, OK, TX lakes), and even the Boundary Waters can be reached in a long day’s drive. Farm pond fishing in Kansas can also be extraordinary.

David, yes that’s what I meant. I don’t rule out vibration. However, this effect would seem to be greater by multitudes as an input felt by anglers in most bite situations.

Sometimes the tic is a panfish grabbing a piece of the bait and tearing at it, and sometimes it’s the inhalation from something much bigger. Sometimes that inhalation feels like a slow, gentle, big, backward movement. That’s usually followed by fun.

That's great, Kendall! You've had a fascinating career...all in fisheries or a related field?

Olathe (and KC Area) is centrally located within a day's drive to all the great fishing you listed. There is also a decent list of walk-in fishing spots (a collaboration between KWPD and private land owners). One of my favorites is a collection of old strip pits near Valley Falls, KS (with the Delaware River close by to boot). I'm not a Chamber of Commerce member. We both have family in Olathe...cool!

On the thread topic for All:

Do you think there is a measurable benefit from weight reduction in guides? There are a couple aspects to the question: Measurable and Benefit.

I think BOTH measurable and a benefit.

Measurable: How fast a rod oscillates and recovers or dampens can be measured comparatively with rods with different weight guides. Michael Danek, and the tests he advocates for finding a rod's True Natural Frequency (TNF), are as accessible as a mobile phone and not complicated to perform. The heavier the guides the longer the recovery or damping time is the way I see it. There is even a test protocol in the CCS for measuring frequency.

Benefit: Rods cast the collective weight of lure, line and guides. A lighter guide train leaves more of the rod's loaded energy capacity free for casting the lure part of that system Also, as pertains to the whole "vibration" debate, a lighter guide train is a better conductor of resistance changes the way I think about it. I want all those vibrations and/or changes in resistance to come to my awareness as cleanly as possible - and not absorbed or slowed by moving extra weight in the guides.

I have some off-the-rack rods from both St. Croix and OG Loomis (pre-Shimano). I love those rods as is, but they have a lot of extra weight in their guide trains. I stripped and re-guided a couple of the St. Croix rods with micro guides and I love them even more. The rods dampen faster, cast easier, and transfer more information to my hand about what is going on underwater. I admit I did not do any pre and post tests to compare. It's all subjective to my experiences both pre and post re-guiding.

That's how I think about it at least.

I’ve worked a lot in fisheries and some in leadership across multiple disciplines. It’s been quite a career involving everything from grizzly bears to short term DC hitches (grizzlies are more predictable than …).

I very much believe that lightweight guide trains and the accompanying wrapping/epoxy system are beneficial and measurable. I handled my UC79 Mega quite a bit after installing grips and triangular aluminum Alps real seat, but before guide installation. This is a fairly robust saltwater blank and set of grip/seat components. I was astounded how much simple masking tape markers for the underwraps changed the blank’s feel. Then, the underwraps compounded this change. Obviously, the guides and wraps came next. Each part of the process resulted in a noticeable change. This is on a 20-40lb double helix blank that is somewhat of a blank inside of a blank. On a high modulus freshwater blank. the impact of guides is much higher in proportion. I’m pretty skeptical of True Natural Frequency being useful as a measuring tool. A larger diameter, thinner wall blank is usually more sensitive, but should have a lower TNF. I think TNF measures a variable that doesn’t necessarily correlate to rod sensitivity. Also, amplitude could be more important if we were to dive into this realm.

The few pre-Shimano G Loomis rods I own have guide trains that seem huge and awkward in comparison to contemporary custom builds. Even when they were new I noticed that there wasn’t much consistency in components with a 6-12lb casting rod carrying as much guide diameter as their musky bucktail rod. It sort of feels like they used whatever neighboring PacBay happened to have in stock. The St. Croix rods I have from the same era have more coherent component choices. They did skimp on quantity of guides used, though.

My turn:

The question posed was:

"The question of measurable benefit from weight reduction in guides has piqued my interest".

Quite simply, a fishing blank is a dumb instrument - it doesn't know if it being loaded by a lure or a fly line or components.

The heavier the components means the OPTIMAL lure/fly line weight will be dimminished.

Over weighting will negatively effect performance.
Herb
CTS

Herb,

Do you equate overweighting fly Lines for casting purposes the same as overweighting the blank via Components?

Or is it a case of one rod throws a 6 wt. line and lure/fly better than a 5 wt. line?

Overall, I think the lighter the non-casting or performance parts the better. (Which is what I think you said.)

Les - you are correct.
Every rod has a sweet spot for fly line weight or lure weight depending on the caster.
That sweet spot will depend on the component weight.
More fly line / lure weight if components are light - less fly line / lure weight if componebts are heavy.

But - I recently built a fly rod for a fly caster who wanted a rod to take his Fly Casting Masters exam.
I used a Custom CTS #7 blank that I designed - I designed the blank to be used with a RIO Ourbound #7 and built with REC Recoil S/F guides - I.e. LIGHT. That line is 3 line weights heavier than the AFFTA specifies. So, I increased the component weight to compensate.
As it turned out the heavier components were not heavy enough to fully conpensate. I thought it would because the line he was using had a head weight of 190 gr for first 30' - but the entire head was much higher. So, he'd have to carry a lot of line in the air - O.K. for distance - but not so goodfor up close accuracy exams.
Herb