Anybody use them? Anyone have any thoughts on them?

Building rods in MA, Building the community around the world

Daiwa has used them a long time, how are they received by those anglers? There has to be a bunch of opinions out there already.

El, I haven 't used them, but as for my thoughts on them .......... to me, it wouldn't come down to weight, between them and Fuji T2s, it would come down to, does the carbon fiber frame itself, offer advantages in sensitivity, over titanium.

If the frame material doesn't enhance sensitivity, then I'd see them as just having that "cool factor" of having carbon fiber framed guides. Which is the same way I feel about having guides with Torzite rings. I can tell no difference in performance, (sensitivity) between a guide with a Torzite ring, or an SIC ring.

I've got two sets of Torzites here at the house that will be going on the two MB 725 C6O2 blanks I have yet to build on. And the only reason I got them, was because of the 40% off sale NFC had on Fuji guides. If NFC had a choice of Fuji T2s, I would have gotten them instead.

But I gotta say ..... I am very curious about any possible sensitivity difference because of the material they're made of.

The material that the guides are made from plays zero role in sensitivity, unless that material is somehow lighter or the frames are of a different size and shape, etc. The dynamics of what makes one rod more sensitive than another, does not come down to some sort of magic foo goo dust sprinkled on the rod. Sensitivity is not changed simply by the material the guides are made from..

What you would want to look at in terms of the carbon frame guides is whether their weight changes the swing weight of the rod, the balance, etc. Do they make the rod more resistant to the effects of salt water corrosion? Do they offer any advantages in terms of necessary durability? Questions like these can only be answered by the task you are asking the rod to perform. In many cases, the carbon frame guides may offer no advantages whatsoever. In some other applications they may be just a ticket for what you’re wanting to do.

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Tom? I'm curious if you would say the same thing about the material grips are made of?

Yes. There is no magic powder you can add to a rod to make it more sensitive. You would have to change the dynamics of the rod in some manner, i.e. change the length (sensitivity) the weight (rod speed, inertia, balance, etc) or some other mechanical property of the rod. If everything else remains equal, simply changing a material isn't going to affect sensitivity.

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@David even with 40% off I just really couldn't bring myself to go Torzite, I only even picked up the c602 blank because I picked up a couple shifts a week for the next few months and trust it's worth it.


Also, David, you've been here long enough to know better than to ask Tom a question about rod/blank/material sensitivity. He thinks sensitivity is merely leverage governed by the length of the rod.

As for material sensitivity, I will be posting a video soon I found on the world wide web that has a portion that talks about grip material and it's impact on sensitivity.

Some very well experienced pioneers of the industry believe there's a difference, and I trust them, plus the science adds up.

As for the Ti and Atlas, I don't know enough between the two, but if one is better than a SS tip top I'd imagine the other is too for some overlapping reasons and for some different reasons.

I was just hoping for some real world experience between the two

Building rods in MA, Building the community around the world

When discussing sensitivity tests, make sure the tests duplicate what actually happens on the water. This has always been one of the failures of "spine finding" and thinking you can stop rod twist with spine orientation. Trouble is, flexing a blank by hand and flexing one via a line running through the set of guides attached to the rod are not the same thing. Same with sensitivity - there is no electrical current or "vibrations" coming off lures or fish.

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As much as people say cork is bad for sensitivity, some of the production rods that people generally agree are tops as far as sensitivity goes use cork. Such as the NRX.

Having a grip and reel seat that are comfortable probably has a bigger factor on sensitivity than cork vs composite handles.

Does anybody really hold the rod by the grips?? I know that spinning or casting one of my hands is on the reel/reel seat and the other is on the reel handle. I might grab the foregrip when fighting a fish and I might grab the rod butt when casting but in the use where sensitivity would be a factor my rod hand is on the reel/reel seat. Same topic under making Sausage.

You look here and other places and virtually everyone says enlarge the carbon skin grip bore slightly so the carbon skin doesn't scratch the blank, since it's not touching the blank how is it transmitting anything the core isn't doing on its own?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2024 11:17PM by Spencer Phipps.

The carbon skin is laminated to the foam core which is touching the blank - in effect you have a single unit. The carbon is only there to protect the core. It doesn't add anything in terms of "sensitivity." But again, these so called "vibrations" aren't electrical currents, etc. Simply adding carbon to a rod doesn't make the rod more "sensitive." Same thing with the guides.

Too much time is spent on "sensivity" and not enough on the other attributes that make a rod a pleasure to fish with. And those attributes are enhanced by making a rod lighter.

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Ray ..... perhaps the NRX has cork grips because Shimano / G Loomis, is trying to sell rods. You merely have to look at the preferences expressed by many members of this site that prefer cork grips. Cork has that nice warm look and feel to it. On the other hand, the look and feel of carbon fber skinned grips is off putting to many. I know this because the majority of my rods have carbon fiber skinned grips. Most of the comments I get when someone handles one of my rods is, they don't like the feel of the grips. And quite a few say that cork grips look better as well.

Interestingly, I get a lot of comments on the rods I've built using the XO skeleton grips. Most everyone loves the looks, but more than a few don't like the feel. From what I'm told, and I can't be sure because I have never handled one, the soft touch grips sold by NFC and others, have the feel of cork. My point being, I suspect the NRX has cork grips, because cork grips sell rods.

As far as grip material not making a difference in sensitivity of the rod, I respectfully disagree. Surprisingly, cork grips and foam core carbon fiber skinned grips are not that much different when it comes to weight. I wouldn't have believed that before weighing them. And when I say not that much different in weight, I mean 2.65 grams between a 9" carbon fiber skinned grip, and a 9" cork grip that I made. The cork grip I made was made almost entirely of natural cork. The amount of non natural cork in the grip consists of 1" worth of large grain, medium burnt burl. There is zero doubt in my mind that I can feel more in the heel of my hand where it contacts the grip on a carbon fiber skinned grip, than I can on a cork grip.

Spencer, it's not the carbon fiber that transmits the feel better. It's the core. As far as boring the carbon skin slightly so the carbon skin doesn't scratch the blank. I use a tapered fore grip turned backwards as the forward grip on the split grip spinning rods I have. I have never over bored the carbon skin so it won't scratch the blank. And I have never had one scratch the blank. Those that mention it may scratch the blank are clearly talking about painted blanks, because it sure isn't going to scratch a natural finish graphite blank.

And the only way grip material is going to make a difference in sensitivity is if it weighs more? So what about the 3 rods I've built using the XO skeleton grips? They are worlds ahead of any other grips I've used when it comes to feeling things in my hand. And XO skeletons weigh more than the cork and carbon fiber skinned grips that are smaller in size than the XO skeleton.

It's like some think that when someone talks about rod sensitivity, that it's just from the front of the reel seat to the tip. If the entire length of the blank counts when taking CCS measurements, it dang sure counts in what makes up the sensitivity of a rod.

As far as what we feel through our fishing rods not being vibrations. That's just plain silly. The definition of the word vibration is virtually the same in any dictionary on the planet. If you don't think what the lure tied on the end of your line is causing the line to oscillate, vibrate, and that the rod is transmitting the line vibration to your hand, then ............... you know what ...... forget it.. This is a classic example of the beating a dead horse metaphor.

It didn't work then, and it isn't going to work now.

Sorry I messed up your thread El.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/19/2024 06:57PM by David Baylor.

Lures don't suddenly start vibrating on their own. What you interpret as a "vibration" is actually a cadenced resistance against your attempt to retrieve the lure through the water. It will not happen on a slack line. Only on a taut line. The rod indeeds transmit this and you can see it - the rod moves - and feel it. And the longer the rod the more it will move and therefore the more you will feel. What you feel with the rod is all about lever mechanics.

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@David - it's all good my man, clearly nobody is reading the thread topics or previous comments

my recent thread is about manufacturing rod blanks (How Sausage is Made) but people don't seem to know that, yet are commenting.

Tom, my old friend, a squirrel gethers it's nuts for a season and prepares for another season. But not every squirrel that digs in winter has buried nuts in summer.

I still have my very first casting rod I ever purchased, it is a Field and Stream Fuego (or something like that). I recently pulled it out to see how it would do all these years later for some moving baits.

It's a 15/20 dollar 7ft MHF

I have been experimenting with my set ups and applications, and one night I ended up using my 7 ft MHXF Kistler Helium to throw a weighted t rig Rage Swimmer. My first time doing so, I was blown away at the thump of that tail on that thing!

Tried it on the Fuego, and felt nothing- that is the difference the rest of us are talking about Tom.

I later threw it on a longer rod, and your theory doesn't hold water here Tom, the longer rod was not able to relay the information that I needed. My 7ft Kistler told me when the tail was kicking, or when the weeds wrapped it up.

The longer rod felt nothing the entire time

A 9ft surf rod will not be close to as sensitive as my 7ft Kistler by a mile

@Ray, David is 100% right, the top priority of all major rod manufacturers is sales. Without a doubt they would make a rod out of a 7 ft crayon ???? if it would sell

Cork is the Audi, a beautiful luxurious comfy piece of crap.
Carbon fiber grips is the Toyota Camry Sport Edition. Looks sharp to many, not all, doesn't scream luxury, will perform beyond expectations and last lifetime.

Okay cork isn't that bad, Audi is garbage, but we'll taken care of cork will definitely out last an audience.

Anyways, all that to say - much of sales is perception. Fuji water bottle is 5 bucks, it's literally just water. Avon is tap water, truly tap water that people can basically get for free or for pennies.

Perception

Plus, if they're making 5 lines of rods with 15 rods in each line, throwing a random new trial of carbon fiber grips instead of the same old cork becomes a major investment (time, equipment, money etc) to see how they sell isn't worth it. Especially since they're less likely to sell as well as the "classic" style based solely on the consumes desire for the classic look. Again, Perception.


I forgive you David, I've been known to open a few cans of worms myself... I think I'm starting to develop a liking for them,

Building rods in MA, Building the community around the world

A couple of years ago I was fishing an OSP 3D wacky worm when a school of fingerling largemouth started a feeding frenzy on all three legs of it. I could see it happening in clear water with polarized glasses. The fish were stretching the worm and it was snapping all over the place. The Eternity blank based rod felt sort of electric in my hand and the 10lb, 8 strand braid was also in play. I believe this was a rare case of actual vibration transmission over leverage arm. I just don’t believe vibration transmission commonly happens. When it does, it feels unique.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2024 01:52AM by Kendall Cikanek.

As the co-inventor of the foam core, carbon skinned grips, we never pushed the idea that they somehow made a rod more sensitive. Nothing we saw indicated that such a thing was happening. We did insist, and rightly so, that they increased a rod's overall stiffness to weight ratio which made the rod more efficient overall. We also noted, particularly when used on fly rods, that anything you did previously with a rod sporting a cork grip could be done to the same extent with less effort on the rod with one of our foam core, carbon skinned grips. Someone mentioned above that it's the foam that is the magic - the carbon skin is just a protective coating. Leave it off and just paint the core and the results will be the same.

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El,

I like them. They have a cool look and so far perform great.

I built a casting set. I used the ACGKW 6 for the butt guide and all ACGYT5's for the runners and I did put a torzite tip top on a APFG 744 blank with 12lbs flouro. The goal was to make a really light glass rod. I really like the rod and how it performs. I usually build all my personal rods with torzite's and decided to give the ATLAS guides a try as I got them on a promo and thought I'd branch out.

I like them and I will use them again. The smaller sizes have larger outside diameters than a comparable titanium from fuji due to material and construction, and I don't know how much weight they would save in the smaller runners or micro guides. I wouldn't be able to feel the difference and don't have a scale sensitive enough to measure the guides side by side. I'll take a couple pictures on my phone and post them. Let me know if you have any specific questions.

*edited for spelling.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2024 10:49AM by Robert Henry.

Torzite size 5 KB compared to an Atlas size 5 runner. Forgive the thread work. I recently switched to size A , from the size D in the picture, and wow does it make a difference in packing and looking more like paint than thread! I’m still learning and in my first year of building.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/2024 09:34AM by Robert Henry.