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Label woes
Posted by:
Dale Thompson
(---)
Date: October 03, 2024 01:15PM I simply cannot do clean labels. I have tried the techniques described on this forum, but apparently without the skills needed. This pic shows the main issue - voids under the label. This is the third attempt on this rod. I started by putting a thin layer of epoxy that resulted in a slightly wavy surface. I sanded that down using 1500 grit wet paper on a block of wood and got what appeared to be a nice flat surface. Then I did another coat of epoxy and used an index card on the wood block to get the epoxy level. Everything looked good until I applied the decal. The result is shown in the photo: voids or air pockets. Is there a way to salvage this (an overcoat of epoxy to hide the flaws) or do I again go back to the start? Re: Label woes
Posted by:
David Baylor
(---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: October 03, 2024 02:05PM
If you're getting air pockets or voids under the decal, you're getting one of two things, or a combination of both. You're either not getting good adhesion of the decal to the surface of the finish you're placing it on, Or, you're having some kind of off gassing that is causing the decal to lift.
I highly doubt that it's an off gassing issue, as I'm assuming you're not placing the decal until the finish bed is fully cured. An adhesion problem could have numerous causes. Contamination of the finish bed's surface. Contamination of the adhesive surface of the decal. Not burnishing the decal with enough pressure to generate some heat that helps the adhesive on the decal adhere to the surface better. Or perhaps, but probably unlikely .... burnishing the decal with too much pressure, thereby creating a large amount of heat which is somehow affecting the adhesive on the decal. Do you have spare decals, and another rod you can use to practice on? Re: Label woes
Posted by:
Dale Thompson
(---)
Date: October 03, 2024 02:23PM
Interesting, David. I doubt out-gassing as I let the epoxy cure for no less than 24 hours, then I check the mixing cup per Tom K. Contamination of the decal surface seems unlikely. I'm pretty careful, lab background. So contamination of the substrate seems likely, but how do I clean it? Soft rag and water? Can't use DNA, it's epoxy!
Yeah, I have plenty of spare decals and rod bits. Re: Label woes
Posted by:
Tom Kirkman
(Moderator)
Date: October 03, 2024 03:43PM
You can use DNA but not as the last step in the process. Water-Break-Free is Clean-Scour-Apply.
Labels, decals, etc., often repel epoxy themselves. I would advise applying a coat of color preserver or a spray fixative over the decal before applying the epoxy. .............. Re: Label woes
Posted by:
David Baylor
(---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: October 03, 2024 06:41PM
I've only put a decal on one of the rods I've built. I applied it to a finish bed that was about 12 hours old. I didn't have any problems with the decal lifting of getting air pockets under it, or under the top coat of finish I placed on it. What I did have, was a small fish eye in the finish that was directly on top of the decal itself. The fish eye told me I had some form of contamination. But it was just a small fish eye. Perhaps 1/16" in size.
Tom, I'm wondering that since it was such a small fish eye, and just over the decal itself, could I just use 91% isopropyl alcohol to clean the surface of the decal, in lieu of coating the decal with color preserver, or a fixative? I recently received an order of custom decals from Decal Connection, for most of the rods I've built. At $8.99 a piece and for the number of decals I purchased, I sure would hate to have to reorder them all. The reason I'm asking if just a cleaning would do, is because I don't want to lose any sheen or vibrancy in the colors. And just a shout out to Decal Connection. I worked with Debbie and Britney, and they were both awesome to work with. They made things very easy, and the decals are super sweet looking. Nothing fancy. Just multi colored versions of the factory NFC decals, with a slight font size change. I'm going to have them do some Rainshadow decals for me next. Another great board sponsor !!! Re: Label woes
Posted by:
Tom Kirkman
(Moderator)
Date: October 03, 2024 07:09PM
The extremely smooth surface of most decals can repel epoxy. I would coat it with CP, wait 24 hours and then apply the epoxy.
If you sprinkle water on the decal, what does it do? Wet it evenly or draw up and pull away in spots? If the latter, you don't have a water-break-free surface and the epoxy will tend to do the same thing. .............. Re: Label woes
Posted by:
Todd Jensen
(---.midco.net)
Date: October 03, 2024 07:30PM
Why not apply directly to the blank, a coat of CP, and then epoxy after CP is dry. It seems to work fine for me. Re: Label woes
Posted by:
Ross Pearson
(---.dlth.qwest.net)
Date: October 03, 2024 07:33PM
First attaching the center of the width of the decal to the blank from end to end and then slowly pressing and sliding incrementally towards the top and bottom of the decal from that axis helps to avoid trapping air under the decal. The back side a piece of masking tape over the end of your finger can be used to slide along the axes going alternately towards the top and bottom of the decal until its sealed top to bottom. Re: Label woes
Posted by:
David Baylor
(---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: October 03, 2024 08:08PM
Tom, thank you for the fast response. I appreciate it. I gave your suggestion of sprinkling some water on one and observe what it does. I used one of the sample decals I was sent initially, but I had applied it to a blank, so while I didn't have any water bead up on its' surface, I don't know if that's because It was on a curved surface. I'll give it a try with another one of my sample decals but this time applied to a flat surface, and see what happens.
Anyhow ...... if needed, I'm assuming a very light coat of CP will be enough to do the trick? And can I apply it with a small sponge? I've started using these little mascara applicators with sponge ends, to apply finish on the ends of my guide wraps if I have one that doesn't have quite the edge I'm looking for, and they work quite well. I'm thinking, soak the sponge end in CP, and make a light pass over the decal? I figure it would be less messy than if I applied the CP with a brush. Less clean up around the decal. Or would you personally just coat the entire finish bed with CP, and call it a day? I didn't have any problem with the edge of the decal lifting on the one decal I've done. Just that one little fish eye. And Todd. From what I've read, and I don't know if it's true because I have never tried it ..... but I have read that just putting the decal straight onto the blank and then coating with finish, can make the edge of the decal visible? Also, 8 of the rods I'll be putting decals on, are original finish X ray, and X ray C6O2 blanks. I'm thinking the decals might not play well with the ridged finish of the blanks. Re: Label woes
Posted by:
Erik Tuss
(---)
Date: October 03, 2024 09:35PM
I do not put my decals directly on the blank. Each rod I build gets 2 decals.
I do not use any CP when paying decals anymore. It will on occasion give a very light milky appearance where it is applied. Also, if applying CP to the blank instead of epoxy as a base coat you will pull up the CP if you need to adjust the label. To avoid air pockets under my labels I apply a coat of finish to the bare blank and let it dry. I then line up the center of the blank and label. When I satisfied with the alignment O start from one end of the label, in the center, and with a rubber stamp roller, roll it onto the blank. Then do that working out from the center. I do this very methodically to ensure no air can be trapped while adhering the label. One that's done for the label I then apply a thread wrap over the entire label and let it stay on with tension for a half hour. After all that, there's no bubbles. The only thing that may happen is some adhesive squeezes out from under the label. Clean it as best you can and then apply a coat of finish. Let that coat dry. If any fish eyes or issue appears, a very light scuff only where the issue is, and put on the final coat of finish. My decal area gets 3 coat. The base coat, a thin top coat, then the final bury coat. I look at CP like a band aid. It can be helpful, but learning to get results just using finish is a better process, for me. Re: Label woes
Posted by:
Todd Jensen
(---.midco.net)
Date: October 03, 2024 09:55PM
You are correct about the x ray with the ridges. Re: Label woes
Posted by:
Kendall Cikanek
(---)
Date: October 04, 2024 12:29AM
The pattern of your air pockets suggests that this isn’t a bubbling type of issue. You are getting long wrinkles in the same direction as if the label is shrinking laterally due to either getting over stretched in that direction or that it isn’t compatible with a chemical. Re: Label woes
Posted by:
Kerry Hansen
(---.wavecable.com)
Date: October 04, 2024 01:11AM
I didn't see where you mentioned whether this is a water slide or adhesive decal? Re: Label woes
Posted by:
Tom Kirkman
(Moderator)
Date: October 04, 2024 10:03AM
If the water is simply running off, instead of uniformly, wetting, the surface, curved surface or not, your decal is repelling whatever you’re putting on it.
…….. Re: Label woes
Posted by:
Ken Delbridge
(192.55.55.---)
Date: October 04, 2024 10:21PM
I struggled a bit with some labels when I first started and to be fair & honest what has really worked well for me is the following:
1) Wash your hands with dish soap before touching anything, and in between if you touched anything but the materials used to apply the label 2) Make sure the blank is clean, use IPA for the blank surface and painters tape to remove any fibers 3) Wash your hands again if you need to 4) Follow the Mudhole videos for applying decals using scotch tape, that method works really well, just make certain you smooth out the label uniformly If I could reiterate the cleanliness part, I would. Maybe try wearing gloves if you don't want to wash your hands. I have been bitten by contamination a few times and being conscious of this has really improved my labeling success. That and rounding the corners of the label before installing. Re: Label woes
Posted by:
roger wilson
(---)
Date: October 05, 2024 08:39PM
Pretty easy.
First take the label and place it on a dowel that is about 1/3rd smaller than the blank to which it will be attached. put a piece of paper around it and then a piece of tape to secure everything tight. This will preform the label to the shape of the blank. Then, when it comes time to apply the label simply go over the blank with blue masking tape to tack off any dust. Do not put ANYTHING on the bare blank. Now - apply the blank using manufactures recommendations. Let everything set up for a day. Now, apply your finish over the rod and the label at the same time. I prefer to use only a single coat of finish for the rods that I build. But, if you prefer to use more than one, then after the first coat has dried for 24 hours, apply a second - final coat to the rod and you will be good to go. No need for CP, no need for a coat of anything on the blank before applying the label. Also, NEVER, NEVER use any dna on a rod, after wiping it down a day before you ever start the build. After that - no liquids should be applied to the blank. ANY liquids can end up giving problems to the build. If you have dust, just go over the rod with low tack blue painters tape to tack off the blank. Best wishes. SIMPLE IS BETTER AND POSSIBLY Perfect. Re: Label woes
Posted by:
Kendall Cikanek
(---)
Date: October 07, 2024 03:32AM
Would you share more Roger about the problem(s) involved with using DNA on a rod blank? Re: Label woes
Posted by:
Tom Kirkman
(Moderator)
Date: October 07, 2024 08:30AM
Put a coat of CP on the label. Epoxy does not like smooth, shiny surfaces. The CP is your easiest and best way to rectify this.
........... Re: Label woes
Posted by:
roger wilson
(---)
Date: October 10, 2024 08:32AM
Kendall,
Over the years - simply too many true stories of folks having issues with rod construction - when dna was used during the process of rod building. Principally issues with bubbline, poor adhesion of labels, problems with lettering and other related issues. Simply put, obtain a rod blank give it a really good cleaning - let it age for a week and then, never put any sort of liquid back onto the rod until it comes time for finish application. Use clean hands, avoid oils and similar contamination. If lint or dust happens, use a tack cloth or blue low tack painters tape to tack off the rod to keep the surface clean and free of contamination. Best wishes. Re: Label woes
Posted by:
John Santos
(38.22.140.---)
Date: October 11, 2024 02:50PM
The times I have tried CP over labels, I can sometimes see a milky film under the epoxy in certain light angles. Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
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