David Baylor Wrote:

> And Ross ..... when you move the reel seat further
> from the butt, you're shortening one side of the
> lever, decreasing its' mechanical advantage. At
> the same time you're increasing the length of the
> other side of the lever, which increases its'
> mechanical advantage. Moving a reel seat further
> from the butt will definitely work to balance a
> rod and reel combination, without increasing that
> combinations over all weight.

Okay, thanks for the response. "Now I see !", said the blind man. I did some experimenting recently by taping the reel in different locations on the rod blanks and handles of already built rods. On some longer rods the balance point was moved about a foot towards the butt. The shortest handle (17-18 inches) would require a rear grip of only about 7 inches and similar length fore grip. The rod holding hand moves from the reel to the fore grip balance point after casting. Casting distances were similar whether the handle was long or short.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/2024 09:28AM by Ross Pearson.

"you didn't forget to depress the thumb bar did you? lol" I don't think so, but many years ago.

David,
Actually, folks are really adaptable.
No, the extra length rear grip for balance is only a temporary adjustment.
At least for myself, the need for the longer rod is the ability to increase casting distance.
The longer rod - no matter the length of the rear grip gives me that ability.
The key to long distance casting is to ALWAYS use both hands to cast.
With a long rear grip, and casting two hands, the casting distance really increases over using the same length rod with a shorter rear grip and only using one hand.
The long grip and the use of two hands allow one to really increase the tip velocity of the rod in question and increase the casting distance by many feet or meters, or yards.
One quickly adapts their fishing style to fish with the longer grip tucked in beside you to actually be an aid - rather than a hinderance.

Do you have to change some things? Of course you do. But that is what education is all about. Learning to change, adapt and obtain optimum performance from a given set of tools for the job.

In the main time, one has a perfectly balanced rod when fishing that gives you hours on the water with much less fatigue. No question about it - a lighter rod over a 10 hour day of fishing uses less energy to use than the same rod that is heavier.

Note:
Before going to this system, my early attempts at rod balancing consisted of adding weight on the inside of the blank. Often this attempt resulted in a massive weight gain that really spoiled the rod completely.
Then, I moved to the technique of using lead tape wrapped around the extreme butt end of the rod blank with the butt cap covering the lead tape for a much much lighter weight gain for a balanced rod.
But, by moving to a longer rear split grip - there was virtually no weight gain, but one still gained the advantage of increasing casting distance when compared to a shorter balanced rod with no weight added.

Your rods, your choices.

Take care

I'm firmly in the add weight camp.

Building a NFC 7108 xray that is cut to 7'7". I am playing with the final weight but I will be adding at minimum 15 grams of tungsten putty and maybe up to 25.

I prefer the rod to feel like a fine fencing sabre. Anyone who has handled my builds is blown away with how "light" they feel.

100 yards of fluro weights 20+ grams.

The only rods that need no weight are Point Blank. I'm building one now that balances perfectly with just the reel seat. Once I glue up the handle it will balance under the reel.

I understand going for the lightest possible blank as a challenge.

I prefer the giddy joy of picking up a rod that feels like is floating in your hand.

Rob, I know exactly where you're coming from when people talk about how light your rods feel. The rod I referenced earlier that I added 2 3/8 oz to the butt. I've had people pick it up and mention it feels heavy. I then tell them to hold it as if they were fishing it. They immediately say that it feels way lighter.

I picked up some of that tungsten putty you mentioned. When I need to use it I think it's going to work a lot better than the tungsten cylinder weights I've used in the past. I'll be able to make the weight fit the ID of the blank, versus having to arbor the weights to fit the ID of the blank. I think it's going to work great.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2024 06:56PM by David Baylor.

David,
You indicate that you are adding weight to the rod. Where are you adding the weight to the rod?

Take care

Roger,

i wadded up some masking tape inserted in blank at butt and then put 1/2 oz worm weight, and then used paste epoxy to seal.

Roger, we have participated in this type of thread many times in the past, and the outcome is always the same. You find fault in how I add the weight, which is inside the butt of the blank of the rod. I use a polyurethane foam arbor that I bore out to accept the weight. then sand down the OD of the arbor to fit the blank, and then epoxy the foam arbor inside the blank.

I can understand finding fault in where I place the weights. While the location I place the weight makes it difficult to change if the need should ever arise, it is not impossible to change. I know this from personal experience, because I changed the weight in one of the rods I had counter balanced because I changed the split EVA grips I had on it, to a much heavier full length cork grip that I made. I removed some of the weight I had in the butt of that rod. And yes, it was a real pain to do so. I can't remember off hand how much the grip I made weighed, but I mentioned it's weight in a past thread, and got a lot of suggestions that I could core the grip with polyurethane foam, to help reduce the weight.

Using tungsten weights as I do, means the weight is concentrated in a much smaller area than the same size lead weight. In the past one of the reasons you've found fault in where I place the weight, is because the weight would go further up inside the blank. The furthest up the blank I have ever had weight go, is 2". Does that mean I had to add more weight because all of the weight wasn't concentrated directly in the very butt of the rod. Yes. I had to add 3/16 more weight. versus having the weights taped around the butt of the rod when I was determining the amount of weight I'd need to use.

In the past you've suggested just extending the butt to carry the additional weight. My reply was that extending the butt is the same as making a longer rear grip. And I will not do that. I will not build a rod that is difficult for me to use. For the type of rods I counter balance, the added weight makes them easier to use. Other than what I mentioned in a prior post, I don't make long two handed casts with these rods. They are 7' and longer, high powered bass rods, used for flipping and pitching to targets no more than 40' from the boat. One hand on the rod, one hand on the line or bait. I don't switch the rod to another hand, and I don't reach forward of the reel to cradle the rod while working the bait. The reels on my flipping and pitching rods are all Shimano Castics. They have a thumb bar that allows me to engage the reel without turning the reel handle. so my left hand is palming the reel, my right hand, if I'm flipping, stays with the line. If pitching, my right hand goes immediately to the reel handle.

All of the rods I've counter balanced have the reels on them that will be on them for the rest of my life. I will, and have never professed that where I place the added weight is the best way of doing it, regardless of who you are. But it is how I choose to do it. Your suggestion of using lead tape wrapped around the tenon of the grip and hidden under the butt cap, may work with some slight balance issues, but I assure you that it will not work for all balance issues. And it wouldn't work with any of the rods I've counter balanced. The least amount of weight I have added to any of the rods I've counter balanced is 1 oz. And that is on a rod that has split cork grips that I made. It has no butt cap. It has a cork plug in the end of the butt grip.

Anyhow ...... I'm not trying to convince you. I've said in pretty much every response I've given in a thread with this topic, that it's easy for anyone to try. If they try it and find it's beneficial for them, then great. They can figure out how to add the weight from there. If they don't like it, just take the weight they have taped to the butt of the rod, off. And keep on fishing.

As for others ..... sorry about the long rant. It's a been here, done this kind of thing that I won't be repeating in the future

David,
Simply put, this is all about physics.
In a nutshell, the longer the balance arm the lesser the amount that is required to attain the balance.

I think that you may have misunderstood me when a spoke about a butt cap and weight.

When I balance a rod blank, I start with the bare blank - essentially - and place lead tape around the extreme end of the butt of the rod to achieve the balance of the rod.

Then, the rest of the rod is built in front of the weight.

A butt cap, or a reamed out piece of cork grip is placed over the weight to make it part of the rod, and give the rod its final appearance.

==================================
When I first balanced rods, I did as you did and or do. i.e. I would use lead or tungsten up the center of the blank. But, after using a couple of the rods that I had balanced and had used about 5 inches of weight on the inside of the blank for balance, I just found that the rod was uncomfortably heavy. As a result, I drill out all of the weight that I had added and went fishing again with an unbalanced rod. Even the unbalanced rod was a much better rod to use for fishing compared to the much heavier balanced rod that had 5 inches of weight on the inside of the blank.

This exercise pointed me to the option of wrapping the extreme end of the butt of the rod blank with lead tape to balance the rod. I use either 1/2 inch lead tape or 3/4 inch wide lead tape and use either one row or tape or two rows of lead tape t achieve balance. Now, because all of the weight is concentrated in the extreme 1/2 to 1 inch of the end of the rod blank, the amount of weight used to balance the rod, is always much less than the lesser amount of weight that can be placed on the inside of the rod blank.

But, after doing this for a few years, I came to the conclusion that I still liked to fish with the lightest possible rod and abandoned adding any weight at all and that is what I still do to this day.

Rather, I do what commercial rod manufactures do and that is to make the rear grip longer on long rods to achieve a better overall rod balance.

Folks say - "Naw, I don't want a rear grip that long." "Naw, if you want a rear grip that long, then just start with a shorter blank." But, to put it very simply , the typical longer rod is used for casting a further distance and it is less about the actual fishing and landing the fish. So, the simple answer to the objections is to adopt the practice of always - and I mean Always, use two hands to cast. When you use two hands to cast a long rod and you have a longer rear grip that is ostensibly in place for balance, is actually an aid when doing two handed casting. Your hands are further apart, and you can increase the overall tip speed of your rod on the cast - which always results in a longer distance being cast.

Just for kicks and giggles, give it a try sometime and see what you find out.

------------------
I learned this - action - through the school of hard knocks. I was on the Mississippi river with a good friend and we were fishing for Walleye. I could not understand why he was always out casting me, even though, I was using a longer rod. Also, his rod tip always made a whistling noise when he cast.
Finally, in frustration I said, "Joe, why are you always outcasting me?" He replied, "Notice, both of my hands on the cast?" He said, " two hands is the secret". I had never given his casting a 2nd thought and never really noticed that he always used two hands to cast. So, I immediately switched to using 2 hands, which I still use to this day. Instantly, my casting distance increased greatly, and my rod tips began making the same sound on the cast as his did on his casts.
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Just a few notes and thoughts for your consideration. From another source: [www.bassresource.com]

I would bet money on a blind "feel" test. The idea would be same blank, same components, same handle length, and same reel. Only difference would be one is counter balanced with weight.

My assertion, most users would vote the weighted rod as feeling lighter and more premium. I don't think it would even be close.

I don't like the idea of moving the reel seat, on most rods you would have to move it way to far up the blank to achieve what I'm getting with 7-15g in the extreme butt end. Additionally, I want grip lengths toy liking and not what the blank would dictate.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/28/2024 09:44PM by Rob Carey.

Rob, your assertion says it all! Weight can indeed be your friend.

Amen to that Lynn !!

Agree with David’s first post. If I’m building a top water or crankbait rod, I don’t balance unless it’s really tip heavy since I’ll be fishing with the tip down. If it’s for popping corks, I may add a little back weight but I’m not trying to get it perfectly balanced. If I’m building a rod where rod tip will be held up most of the time - like soft plastics across bottom - I will try to balance it to parallel with fulcrum somewhere between spool and the eye of the level wind on a bait caster. With most reasonable grip lengths it’s usually doesn’t take much if I’ve used lightweight runners and tip. I use golf club tip weights for all this on my inshore rods with butts around 0.4”.