I’m still new to rod building and I am currently building a PB731mhxf as a casting rod for pitching and soft plastics. I’m using split nfc soft touch grips with the butt to the back of the reel seat being 11”. I tried my hand at using the 2 string static load method to place my guides. This is only my 4th build and I’ve used the test each time to tweak the guides. This is my first time placing guides with no chart or general measurements to start out with. I used 12 guides plus the tip top. I’m using a RV6 (20” in front of the reel, a Curado 200k) to a few kb4.5,s and then kt4.5 runners. My last runner is 3” from the tip, I scrolled the forum and have seen where experienced builders have used 10 guides with this set up and many posts that say they do not put a guide closer than 3.5” from the tip. From my test, I think I could really use another guide or two in the train. Would anyone be willing to share their guide spacing on a pb731mhxf that you have built? I would like to see how far off the mark I am. Thanks in advance!

I have zero experience with that blank, so I can't help you there. What I would say as far as guide spacing on a conventionally wrapped casting rod goes, is that as long as the line isn't passing below the surface of the blank, then you guide spacing is going to be fine.

While I don't prefer the line to touch the blank at all, many members say that there is nothing wrong with the line touching the blank under a load. I space my guides so that when the rod is fully loaded (per CCS standards) the line comes very close to touching the blank. And that's it.

As far as the number of guides you currently have going, and possibly needing more guides. I've never built a casting rod using the guide configuration you're using. I've always used a 3 double foot guides reduction train on casting rods (except for my jerkbait rod) and the double foot guides carry more height down the rod blank than the KB and KTs you're using. For that reason, the most guides I've ever put on a casting rod is 11 guides, plus a tip top. And I used 4.5 KTs or L guides on those rods, with those rod being 7' - 7'3" long.

So with the guide configuration you're using, I can definitely see needing more than 12 guides. At least for the type of line path in relation to blank curve that I prefer. As far as the closest guide to the tip top being 3"..... if that gives you the type of line path in relationship to the blank that you want. then put one there. It will help to protect the blank during those times when your rod gets put in a precarious position when fighting or landing a fish.

I haven't built the MH but I've built the medium and the heavy at that length. They have a really fast action so need more guides and closer spacing near the tip. I have 10 guides plus tip on the heavy. The line does touch the blank under a full bend but I am ok with that. If your goal is to never have the line touch the blank, you are probably going to need 12 guides with that blank. I think your current set up is great if it meets your goals. There is no ideal guide spacing, only what works best for you. With 4.5 KTs on a medium heavy rod a couple more or fewer guides will make almost no difference in weight.

You used 12 guides on a 7’3” rod and are considering more? Wow!

14 guides seems excessive to me. I assume your trying to keep the line from touching the blank under load, if this is the intent you may need more, lol.

On casting rods the line’s going to touch the blank under load. Guides are to manage line flow from the reel to the lure to maximize casting distance and to distribute the pressure evenly when the line is being pulled upon.
Too many guides create more friction during casts, this causes shortened casting distance, also adds extra weight to the top third of the rod. Too few and you get line slap and each guide has a greater chance of pulling out from the wrap under load.

The RV6 is used to replace the KW10 in the KR concept. The Fuji’s recommended train is KW10, KW5.5, 3x KB’s, 4x KT’s +tiptop.

Place the RV6 so that the line is centered in the ring from the line roller to the tiptop, this may be closer or further than 20” from the reels level wind. Then place the KW5.5 (your missing) further away from the RV, the line should be centered or slightly closer to the top of the ring. Then, the KB and KT runners can be spaced along the length of the rod.

Personally, I’d do 9 or 10 guides + tiptop.

Here’s a picture of the KR Concept for casting rods.

Thanks everyone for the replies

I love that chart, Michael!

My only modification (for myself) is to replace the two KW guides with a single RV6 guide.

So, my guide train would look something like this:

(1) RV-6 butt guide - place approximately 20-inches +/- from face of casting reel for a starting point.
(3) KB belly guides - progressively spaced as per your static test. (You would be fine with only 2 KB's)
(8) KT running guides - start with first guide from tip at 3 1/2-inches +/- and progressively spaced as per your static test.

For a 7'3" rod that is 12 guides plus your tip top. Plenty of guides, IMO. You are very wise to do a static test because it will reveal the best guide placement for the unique rod you have. (Placement Charts assume every blank is exactly the same, which they are not. Charts can be useful for starting point ideas. The static test will show you exactly what you need and want no matter the variables.)

Also, when I place those first KT guides (working from the tip top back toward the butt guide) I will often place the first four or five KT guides at 3 1/2- inches apart. This is because, if I have a softer, XF tip section, the rod really bends rapidly in that first 18-20 inches. The equivalent spacing keeps the line off the blank and follows the natural bending profile of the rod in static testing.

This is how I approach things based on my builds. I am glad you found this forum so we can also learn from you!

Phillip, all I would say is that Fuji's KR software for their KR concept for spinning rods is always at least one, and most of the times, two running guides shy of what is needed. It appears the KR casting recommendations are just as far off.

9 .... even 10 guides on that rod using 4.5 runners?


Like Les laid out. 12 guides for the guide configuration you laid out at the beginning, is probably more than fine, But if you want to add another one, then add another one. It's not going to kill the performance of the rod.

Found a guide spacing chart from Fuji for the RV6 for up to 7’ rods.

Interested if I'm the only one, but I go up a half size for the tip top.

It looks pleasing to my eye and static loads better keeping the line ever so higher off the tip section.

I haven't been able to get someone to explain why the next guide from the tip has to be that close considering I have yet seen a blank tip that bends much if at all in the distances being used today, I would place my guide about 5 inches from the tip on that blank and I bet it will show the exact flex profile as theirs does, after all the priority of the guide train is to protect the blank from unnatural flex that can and will blow up a blank under use. If you draw the flex profile of the bare blank out and then you add guides till the amount will closely match that curve, in use, you have all the guides you need, the rest accomplish nothing in my opinion.

The two line stress test does define the natural flex profile of the blank. Spence, I use the two line stress test and on many rods I end up with the first guide from the tip closer than 5 inches. It just seems to come out that way. I usually use more guides than most builders, so one would expect mine to be a little closer to the tip, I believe. I'll pay particular attention to this on the next build.

Rob, I may or may not go up half or a whole size on the tiptop. I don't think the rod cares. Depends on what I have on hand.

Yes, it does Michael, but it doesn't when the line is thru the guides and loaded so you can see the real curve your guides placement produced and compare the two. There comes a time when adding more doesn't change anything, I than back off one or two, knowing my blank is as protected as it's going to get. Emory H. made me a believer in his tests and concepts many years ago. I'm a "show me" person.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2023 02:29AM by Spencer Phipps.

What are or where can I find some of these Emory H tests and concepts? I've bumped into a few of his posts on here before.

Spencer, what is your process for guide layout and determining size and amount etc?

Building rods in MA, Building the community around the world

These were physical, onsite demos, not online, though he wrote some interesting articles in RodMaker and passed on info in a lot of posts here. Tip to guide distance isn't hard to visualize, just bend any blank, any type, any direction, the very tip of the blank just doesn't bend like the rest of the rod. If something stays straight, never really has any load on it, than why does it need a guide? Bend it shallow, high stick it, bend it off the ceiling, floor, wall or line, it's all the same.

The two line test with the rod loaded by the second string to the tiptop and the line through the guides hardly loaded does show the true loaded profile of the blank, does it not? I thought that was the reason for the two line stress test (properly done, without the line through the guides significantly loaded).

I am not questioning the conclusion that the tip stays quite straight.

I’m putting together an NFC Fast Glass 745-1 and the runner is 9cm from the tip. When I tried 10cm the gap from line to blank nearly doubled. That centimeter made a big difference keeping the line gap consistent.

Michael -

You will like the APFG 745, IMO. I liked mine so much I bought another one. (I also bought the 744 (IP = 447.5; AA = 78) as a 'step down' for smaller size crankbaits and I like it a bunch, too.)

As you mentioned, this blank has a very soft and fast tip, and that's why I keep those first few guides from the tip at 9 cm.

I went back and looked at my NFC SJ736 and counted 11 guides plus tip top on it. Same basic configuration as I listed above, just one fewer guide than 12.

Spencer Phipps Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I haven't been able to get someone to explain why
> the next guide from the tip has to be that close
> considering I have yet seen a blank tip that bends
> much if at all in the distances being used today,
> I would place my guide about 5 inches from the tip
> on that blank and I bet it will show the exact
> flex profile as theirs does, after all the
> priority of the guide train is to protect the
> blank from unnatural flex that can and will blow
> up a blank under use. If you draw the flex profile
> of the bare blank out and then you add guides till
> the amount will closely match that curve, in use,
> you have all the guides you need, the rest
> accomplish nothing in my opinion.

The guide is also the contact point where the energy of the rod is transferred to the line, and also where the vibrations from the line is transferred to the blank. Taking that first guide closest to the tip away would take away your “tip feel”. No scientific data to back up what I’m saying, but what my common sense tells me. I know working a lure with some missing guides near the tip doesn’t feel tight (I tried a friend’s rod that had some missing guides. LOL.