Hey all,

I'm gonna be getting into a swim bait build (NFC Xray neo 808) and a doozie flippin build for like 3/4oz-1.5oz.

Does guide size make a difference? Double foot make a difference? Is one guide stronger than another?

5 pounds is a big fish round here, plus about 5 pounds in weeds so they won't be fighting monsters, just hopefully more 5 and 6 pounders.

Can anybody speak to the NEO 808?

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Hi EI, don't underestimate modern rods. I catch, not intentionally, 5-10lb drum and the occasional catfish (on shaky heads) on medium light rods. I caught what had to be a 8-10lb cat on an ultra-light setup a year or so ago. Point being, you'll be fine however you build on that blank. That said, I just finished building my nephew a swimbait rod that can handle lures from 2-6oz. The guides on it are CRB LZR guides sizes 12-10-8 (x8), all double foot. The rod is over built, IMO, but he spec'd it to his liking so...

Hey Daryl,

Thanks for your thoughts. That's kinds what I'm thinking too- couldn't I pretty much just use any guides and they'll hold a fish without popping off. I do agree that all double foot is over the top, that absolutely changes the AA and I believe the IP to some degree - both most certainly noticeable in tandem.

Maybe I'll just use the guides I have instead of buying "beefier" guides... only thing is does a double foot actually matter as a butt guide?

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Single foots all the way will hold up to the fish. I have more issues with them holding up to the fisherman. Heavy rods tend to bang into stuff harder. If someone is careful single foots, no problem. And it depends on the design, some single foots are pretty thin, some really tough.

I always use a double foot first guide for cast in order to get the recommended height and just because I feel better about double foot, preferring the Fuji RV6. But other double foot guides can give the recommended height, too, like a size 10 double foot Fuji LKW 10. Then 2 or 3 KB's, then KT's to the end. On a particularly heavy rod KB's can be used for all runners.

What heavier guides do is to change the recovery (frequency) of the rod, not the IP or the AA. Heavier guides make the rod less responsive, or slower to recover.
Norm

Thanks for the feedback ya'll!

@Norman - I was referring to the amount of straight lines and epoxy that goes over a blank with double foots all the way out. Having twice as many areas of the blank with movement restricted will affect the rod's bend profile and IP to some degree as it will take a greater amount of force for that area to bend x10 guides is pretty significant. On an already beefy swimbait rod is it very impactful - IDK, it is certainly a factor.

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Guides are terribly overbuilt for the job they have to perform. Most guides aren't damaged by fish, but by fishermen in travel, storage, etc.

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El Bolinger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for the feedback ya'll!
>
> @Norman - I was referring to the amount of
> straight lines and epoxy that goes over a blank
> with double foots all the way out. Having twice as
> many areas of the blank with movement restricted
> will affect the rod's bend profile and IP to some
> degree as it will take a greater amount of force
> for that area to bend x10 guides is pretty
> significant. On an already beefy swimbait rod is
> it very impactful - IDK, it is certainly a factor.


The addition of guides will make the rod softer. Expect ERN to decrease by a bit as soon as you put guides on the blank. Speed will decrease. Action will remain unchanged.

.........

I overbuilt my rodgeeks B4711xhf using all double foot guides… Once I get around to redoing it I’ll do 2 KW and the rest will be KB’s. After looking into saltwater jigging rods I noticed a lot of them using single foot running guides and those rods handle much heavier lures and fish.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> El Bolinger Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Thanks for the feedback ya'll!
> >
> > @Norman - I was referring to the amount of
> > straight lines and epoxy that goes over a blank
> > with double foots all the way out. Having twice
> as
> > many areas of the blank with movement
> restricted
> > will affect the rod's bend profile and IP to
> some
> > degree as it will take a greater amount of
> force
> > for that area to bend x10 guides is pretty
> > significant. On an already beefy swimbait rod
> is
> > it very impactful - IDK, it is certainly a
> factor.
>
>
> The addition of guides will make the rod softer.
> Expect ERN to decrease by a bit as soon as you put
> guides on the blank. Speed will decrease. Action
> will remain unchanged.
>
> .........

The additional weight will have that affect but the additional stiffness of 2 guide feet with epoxy will make it more stiff. Adding additional hardener over a greater surface area will harden a greater portion of the blank- a naked blank bends more easily. Double the typical area that will have restricted movement and it moves less easily. All of the areas covered in epoxy want to get back to stasis asap, like creating little "fast spots" on the blank.

Maybe it's only ip that increases, but I can't see how all the extra fast spots won't make it faster.

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Those spots will be stiffer, not faster. However, those spots are also heavier and increase the load on the rod. Measure a naked rod blank and then measure it after you've added the guides. The end result will be that the finished rod is softer or less powerful than the naked rod blank due to the addition of guides and finish. This isn't a guess.

Some years ago we had display at one of the Expos with two identical rod blanks, measured to identical ERN figures. One was in its naked form and one had guides wrapped from butt to tip, no spaces in-between. The one with all the guides was soft as a buggy whip, very slow to respond and recover, albeit it still had the same action.

...........

The guides closest to the grip have little or no effect on the recovery speed of the rod. The runners do. If anyone doubts this and they have not tested TNF they are giving an opinion and not an objective fact.

Tom, I expect your "some years ago" demonstration was not with a graphite blank of better than 20 ERN and was not with typical finesse rod guides like titanium KB/KT 4's or 5's?

@Tom did it have the same IP?

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If I interpret "guides wrapped from butt to tip, no spaces in-between. " to mean what it says, no spaces between the guides , then a LOT of weight was added, and not anything representing a realistic rod build. If I'm wrong, please clarify. El, if the ERN's were identical, the IP's would also be .

What is TNF? I just learned about CCS…

send me an email.

El Bolinger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> @Tom did it have the same IP?


The CCS uses ERN to represent intrinsic power. Wrapping guides on a rod blank will cause the ERN to drop from what was recorded on the naked rod blank.

..............

Michael Danek Wrote:

"If I interpret "guides wrapped from butt to tip, no spaces in-between. " to mean what it says, no spaces between the guides , then a LOT of weight was added, and not anything representing a realistic rod build. If I'm wrong, please clarify. El, if the ERN's were identical, the IP's would also be" .


We made the demo rod to an extreme to prove that adding guides to a rod blank does not make the overall rod stiffer or more powerful, which was a popular myth at that time. Apparently that myth still remains in a few corners.

..........

Got it, Tom, thanks.

Sometimes the study of extremes can lead to skewed practical implications.

One of these days I'm going to take an old rod and add some thread and epoxy behind each of the guides and measure the difference.

@Tom what was the ERN of those blanks? Did you ever actually simply compare the difference between double foot guides and single foot guides on the same blank?

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