In an effort to advance my guide placement knowledge, I spent most of the afternoon doing research. Not surprising, there's actually quite a bit of information available on the internet. I found old articles on "equal angle" and setting up peg boards and concentric circles, etc... and information on New Guide Concept. But, the one article that delivers the message in a simple, concise and easy to understand format is a tutorial I found on angler's resource called "Static Load Tutorial". The method outlined in that article for determining proper placement is, IMO, the simplest way to go about accurately placing the guides to be most effective. And, just to be clear, I'm looking at it in terms of a typical bass rod (what I build and use) in the 8' or less category. I think it may be a bit more involved if you're intending on building a 9-10' rod.

Anyway, I just thought I'd pass that along for any new builders coming here for information on guide spacing, which is probably the most intimidating aspect of rod building for a new builder. It was for me anyway.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

............

[anglersresource.net] All kinds of stuff to find out there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2023 09:23PM by Lynn Behler.

Daryl,
If there is a better, more precise procedure for determining guide positions / spacing than the 2-line static load test method, I and most others have not heard of it. It has worked perfectly for me every single time without fail, so well in fact that I do not bother test casting anymore. Just make sure to not load the line running through the guides; it WILL give you erroneous, incorrect information. Independently load the tip however you chose to put a good deep bend in the blank (=<90*) and run a separate line from the reel, through the guides, and out the tiptop with just enough weight (<.5oz) to straighten the line between the guides. Brightly colored wrapping thread works very well. Move / position the guides so that the line mimics the curvature of the blank and you’re done.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Make sure to do this in 3 stages, otherwise at full load the tip and mid sections will be straight and appear to need very few guides.

..............

Mark, Daryl, and others.
I, too, often use both static and test casts to determine guide spacing. In building rods, I have often used the choke point method with a parallel line from the center of the spin cast reel to the point on the blank for the choke point and mark it. I then run the line through my stripper guide and work it back to the point where the line is near center. That is my location for the stripper. The running guides are then placed from choke point to tip top. Often, I find them equidistant to each other to keep the line parallel to the blank. Then a test under load before I wrap and epoxy.

With bass bait casting rods, I use a similar method but often find that this method is a starting point rather than the end point.

But like all suggestions....the best one is the one that works for you.
Jim

james boyless Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mark, Daryl, and others.
> I, too, often use both static and test casts to
> determine guide spacing. In building rods, I have
> often used the choke point method with a parallel
> line from the center of the spin cast reel to the
> point on the blank for the choke point and mark
> it. I then run the line through my stripper guide
> and work it back to the point where the line is
> near center. That is my location for the stripper.
> The running guides are then placed from choke
> point to tip top. Often, I find them equidistant
> to each other to keep the line parallel to the
> blank. Then a test under load before I wrap and
> epoxy.
>
> With bass bait casting rods, I use a similar
> method but often find that this method is a
> starting point rather than the end point.
>
> But like all suggestions....the best one is the
> one that works for you.
> Jim

I may be missing something here - spincast? Do you mean spinning? A spincast reel sits on top of the rod and would be set up just like a casting rod. Also, butt guide instead of fly rod stripping guide? I think I get the gist but the terminology is off.

.............

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> james boyless Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Mark, Daryl, and others.
> > I, too, often use both static and test casts to
> > determine guide spacing. In building rods, I
> have
> > often used the choke point method with a
> parallel
> > line from the center of the spin cast reel to
> the
> > point on the blank for the choke point and mark
> > it. I then run the line through my stripper
> guide
> > and work it back to the point where the line is
> > near center. That is my location for the
> stripper.
> > The running guides are then placed from choke
> > point to tip top. Often, I find them
> equidistant
> > to each other to keep the line parallel to the
> > blank. Then a test under load before I wrap and
> > epoxy.
> >
> > With bass bait casting rods, I use a similar
> > method but often find that this method is a
> > starting point rather than the end point.
> >
> > But like all suggestions....the best one is the
> > one that works for you.
> > Jim
>
> I may be missing something here - spincast? Do you
> mean spinning? A spincast reel sits on top of the
> rod and would be set up just like a casting rod.
> Also, butt guide instead of fly rod stripping
> guide? I think I get the gist but the terminology
> is off.
>
> .............

At the risk of being too presumptive, I think he's talking about a spinning reel. I say this because, while I was researching yesterday, I ran across an article that discussed how engineers had to find a way to better manage line coming off of a spinning reel, thus using the choke point as a reference.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Make sure to do this in 3 stages, otherwise at
> full load the tip and mid sections will be
> straight and appear to need very few guides.
>
> ..............


I'll do that, but the most critical part to get right appears to be where the rod bends at the 90 degree point. That'll be the real problem child if the running guides are spaced too far apart in that area. That seems to be the point of the static test; to make sure there is not too much distance between the running guides adjacent to the guide placed at the apex of the 90 degree bend. Hopefully, I explained that correctly. It would be easier to illustrate with a 1/2 square (45, 45, 90 right triangle). I'm assuming you're talking about breaking that bend into three segments kind of like a curve in a road where you have an entrance, apex and exit?

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Make sure to do this in 3 stages, otherwise at
> full load the tip and mid sections will be
> straight and appear to need very few guides.
>
> ..............

Just when I think I'm starting to get a grip I read this hahaha.....now back to rereading to make sense of it lol...

Bob Foster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom Kirkman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Make sure to do this in 3 stages, otherwise at
> > full load the tip and mid sections will be
> > straight and appear to need very few guides.
> >
> > ..............
>
> Just when I think I'm starting to get a grip I
> read this hahaha.....now back to rereading to make
> sense of it lol...

Bob, I *think* he means performing the test three times within the distance from the tip to the 90 degree bend. Example, if you don't account for the initial bend in the tip, you may end up placing the first or second guide too far back from the back tip.

Edit to add: This is one area where I disagreed with the tutorial. From what I could tell, it did not account for the initial bend in the tip. It even mentioned that the first guide can usually be placed 4 - 4.5" back from the tip. That may be true on a slow action rod, but I don't find that to be the case with any of my rods. Even a moderate action rod should have one closer, IMO. But, perform the test and let your eyes be the judge.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2023 12:34PM by Daryl Ferguson.

Yes, you're right Tom, it's a spinning reel. I'm sorry if the terminology is off. I've used the "New Guide Concept" by Fuji (The New Guide Concept System • RodMaker Magazine Volume 5 #1) as a starting point for my builds. According to information from Rod Building and others both butt and stripper guide are both used to name the last guide in spinning and casting rods. They are also called First Reduction Guide (https://anglersresource.net/rod-glossary/).

Jim

Action is progressive. Even fast action rods will bend all the way back into the butt area as you put more and more load on them. So the arc the rod forms with a slight load is not going to be the same arc it forms as the load increases. The article I linked to in the library explains the 3-step process.

..........

james boyless Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, you're right Tom, it's a spinning reel. I'm
> sorry if the terminology is off. I've used the
> "New Guide Concept" by Fuji (The New Guide Concept
> System • RodMaker Magazine Volume 5 #1) as a
> starting point for my builds. According to
> information from Rod Building and others both butt
> and stripper guide are both used to name the last
> guide in spinning and casting rods. They are also
> called First Reduction Guide
> (https://anglersresource.net/rod-glossary/).
>
> Jim

Some glossary's are not accurate (for whatever difference it even makes). On spinning and casting rods the first guide beyond the reel is the "butt" guides. On a fly rod the first guide past the reel is the "stripping" guide. The latter by reason that line is stripped from a fly reel by hand.

..............

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Action is progressive. Even fast action rods will
> bend all the way back into the butt area as you
> put more and more load on them. So the arc the rod
> forms with a slight load is not going to be the
> same arc it forms as the load increases. The
> article I linked to in the library explains the
> 3-step process.
>
> ..........

Got it.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Action is progressive. Even fast action rods will
> bend all the way back into the butt area as you
> put more and more load on them. So the arc the rod
> forms with a slight load is not going to be the
> same arc it forms as the load increases. The
> article I linked to in the library explains the
> 3-step process.
>
> ..........

That's pretty clear. I will confess to have not clicked the link. Haste makes waste / more speed less haste

Don't make a project out of it, put a good working bend in it and put guides where needed.

I personally don't see the point in doing static load in three stages. You'll eventually be moving the guides to be in the correct position for a fully loaded rod, so why not just start there and be done with it. A fully loaded rod is going to need more guides than a lightly loaded one in most cases. At least it will for how close I like the line's path to follow the natural curvature of the blank.

Others may see it differently than I, but I don't see static load placement of guides to have anything to do with casting. It's about having guides in the right place for when the blank is put under heavy pressure, as when fighting a fish.

To quote my buddy Lynn .... put a good working bend in it and put guides where they need to go.

Oh and as far as how close your closest guide to the tip will be, The closest I have ever put a guide to the tip top is 3.5" I certainly could have gotten away with it being 4 - 4.5" from the tip top, but as I sometimes put my rods in precarious positions while landing fish, I go with extra guides to protect the blank just as insurance.

Use static load placement and I think you will see that 4" or so is going to just about right for anything but an ice fishing rod. The tips just don't flex as much as you might think.

David, I don't own a bass rod with the first guide from the tip top at 4-4.5". For kicks and grins, I just measured the distance on the cheapest rod I own, a 6'6" Abu Garcia Black Maxx (literally a $50 rod/reel combo). It was 3.5". But hey, that's why we build our own stuff; so we can do as we wish. But, yours and Lynn's point to not make this more than it need be is well taken.

Anecdote: The Black Maxx Rod has never been used. It's literally sat in the corner of my office for a couple of years untouched until tonight. I just wanted the reel and it was cheaper to buy as a combo. lol

p.s. I only started bass fishing again when I retired a couple of years ago. I hadn't fished prior to that in probably 30 years and I don't remember anything as detailed as the spacing of the guides on those rods.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2023 08:25PM by Daryl Ferguson.

Daryl. just out of curiosity, have you happened to place that rod you referenced under static load? The reason I ask is, I've replaced the guides on 5 different factory rods, using 2 line static load to place the new guides I was putting on. None of the running guides were put back in the same place as the guides were from the factory.

Part of that was because I was putting on shorter guides than were on the rod from the factory, but on one of the rods, a G Loomis GL2 casting rod, I was reusing the guides I took off of it. Those didn't go back in the places they were from the factory. My point being, the guides on the Black Maxx may not have been placed using static load. It seems that progressive guide spacing is used more on factory rods, and some of the really experience builders that are member of this site use progressive spacing as well. Nothing wrong with it, but they may not be exactly where static load would place them.

And really, static load guide placement, at least for me, is all about how closely I want the path of the line to follow the natural curve of the blank. I like it to follow very closely so I probably use more guides than the majority of the members here. If I am going to err on the number of guides I use on a build, I will always err on the side of a higher number of guides, than I will a lesser number of guides.

As far as that guide close to the tip, If you do static load and your load is 90 degrees to the blank, which is should most definitely be, place a guide at a point where the line will be parallel to the tip between the tip top and the closest guide to it. That's pretty much where you want that closest guide to go. Unless of course there is a chance you may high stick the rod when fighting or landing a fish. Then a guide even closer may help. and add a little insurance in protecting the blank.

At least that's the philosophy I go by with number of guides and running guide placement.