I’m sure this has been discussed. I stopped at a custom rod builder in my neck of the woods to buy a tip top and hook keeper, which I always forget to order. I brought a couple of rods to critique. I’ve only made 5 or 6. He said I was doing alright, but my spine was off on my baitcasting rod. Thought I paid close attention to the right spot. He then explained how I should’ve put the first 2 guides at twelve o’clock, then then next at 2, the next at 4, and rest at 6o’clock. I was confused. He showed me a rod he made with this configuration of guides. Craziest thing I’ve ever seen. He said with big fish, the rod wants to twist. This arrangement prevents this. I’m a freshwater bass, walleyes, and pike fisherman. You guys know your stuff. Do you make rods like this? Kinda want to try it. Looks interesting. I can’t get the guides straight anyway. Thanks, Sam.

Sam ,
What you're describing is a spiral wrap and the gentleman is correct regarding it doing away with the torque on a bait casting build . Not sure how many would agree with his guide placement formula but you can find a wealth of information here by doing a search for "spiral wrap".
Ron

Thanks, Ron.

Sam,
Indeed, the rod you saw was spiral wrapped. While the concept is over 100 years old, I’m confident that the “look” keeps many from employing its benefits. Although there are many different methods / styles to get the guides to the bottom, I agree with Ronald that the method you saw may not be the best. As you, I was intrigued with the concept to eliminate rod torque and built one for myself. WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!! Conclusion = ALL my baitcasting / conventional rods, especially >20lb, will be spiral wrapped from now on!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Spine has nothing to do with rod twist - guide orientation does and with a spiral wrap the rod won't twist. That's the whole point.

For the history, a gentleman by the name of John Scanlan patented the Spiral Wrap sometime around 1909 or so if I recall correctly. It was popularly known as the Robert's Wrap due another gentleman, who I believe was located in Colorado, using and pushing it hard during the 1970's and 1980's. Since them a lot of names have been applied to it, mostly concerning particular configurations, but they are all spiral wraps.

............

I would say for general bass fishing, it's a novelty and up to the individual based on preference. On a bass rig it will let you drop guide count, where if you build the guides on top you have to add more guides to prevent blank touch. I have done both and I'm happy with both for bass applications.

However... for pelagic species that are going to give you >5-10min of fight? Total game changer to have an acid/spiral wrapped rod matched with a conventional reel. The only exception in my opinion is if you are running a level-wind reel offshore, because you can hold the reel body and not worry about line stacking. A conventional reel is much more manageable especially on the bigger fish classes when combined with the right acid/spiral wrap. Do your homework before wrapping a blank - guide positioning/direction/spacing is fairly important for an acid wrap.

As Mark said above if you have a 20lb or greater rod, there's probably good reason to acid wrap it if you plan to put a conventional reel on it.

I must admit. I did not not do his guide placement justice. I just played it out in a quick and dirty description. I’m going to give it a try.

Hello All.

Here are a couple articles on the simple spiral wrap.

Vol/Issue.............Article..................Author.....................Page.
23/3 Simple Spiral Revisited By: Tom Kirkman. 10
8/2 Simple Spiral. (Wrap-Around or Acid Wrap). By William "Bill" Colby. 16


Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Sam,
If you consider yourself a true custom rod builder, acknowledge, investigate and ingest all of the plethora of spiral wrap methods and then apply that knowledge to producing your own method. All the different types have their own unique pros and cons. In the end, they all work, yet some are better-suited for certain circumstances. Of course, I believe mine is the best; but then so does everyone else. In the end, any spiral wrapped rod will virtually eliminate rod torque compared to conventional guides-on-top, a HUGE plus for my concerns.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Sam, I personally enjoyed the comment, "I can't get the guide straight anyway." I can exhaust myself with that. Being a primary texas rig user, this spiral wrap was like finding the Holy Grail. It's the only method I currently use. As previously stated, this forum has wonderful techniques. Personally, I've employed the Cagey method. Kent Griffen, has posted this method he developed. I tied 3 other posted methods and i perfer Kents'. The others worked as advertised. Good luck with your pursuit of rod building passon.

I built my shark rod (Has an Avet T-RX 80w) with a spiral wrap and couldn't be happier.

I once had the notion that a conventional casting rod would perform better than a spiral wrap but because of using micro guides, I have found they cast better than micro guides mounted on the top of the blank. To keep the line off the blank you must use more guides (more weight) on top than on bottom. The thing that causes the most friction on the line is the line touching the blank. The spiral wrapped rod, if done properly, will not let the line touch the blank even under load. Spiral wrapped rods do not cast farther but do cast the same distance as any rod done with the correct spacing and guide placement. I currently use the Forhan Revolver style of spiral.

Here is how I do it:
The butt guide should be about 20" to 21" from the face of the reel mounted on the reel seat. You will need to mount the reel and tape the butt guide on the blank at 0°, mark the major bend of the rod bent at 90 degrees. Run your line from the reel through the butt guide and tape it just behind or at the major bend of the blank at 180° (tape to bottom of blank). Try to keep the line going through the butt guide ring in the center or just at the top of the guide ring. Tape the next running guides at around 60° and 120° following the line. Depending on your spacing it may not be exactly at 60° and 120°. The object is to keep the line as straight as possible from reel through stripper to the 1st bottom 180° running guide.

Lance
Do you ever offset the butt guide in the direction of the spiral. I did a couple with the offset butt and dont see any line stacking on the reel. Not sure it makes a huge difference TBH..Like to hear your thoughts or anyone's for that matter.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2023 08:51PM by Matt Ruggie.

Matt,
For all of the spiral wrapped rods that I build I offset the butt guide about 5 degrees to compensate for reel line stacking.

After taping the guides on the reel, I will mount the reel that is to be used on the rod, thread the line through the guides and then, pull out about 100 feet of line onto the floor.

Then, keeping some tension on the line on the line after it has gone through all of the line guides, simply reel the line back onto the reel.

I test it with the butt guide at 0 degrees, + 5 degrees and - 5 degrees with respect to the direction of the spiral.

In virtually every case, I will minimize reel line stacking by offsetting the butt guide by 5 degrees in the direction of the spiral.

Note:
This is with a typical bass casting reel with a built in oscillating line guide.

I also use the same system as Lance detailed. i.e. butt guide at about +5, 2nd guide at about +60, 3rd guide at 120.

In addition, the second guide may be a larger guide but its only purpose is to simply keep the line from rubbing on the blank and should be about as short a guide as you can find or create.

Best wishes

Never had a line stacking problem with simple spiral with first guide at the top, zero degrees. They cast just fine, easy to set up.

Michael,
Glad that your system works well for you.

Best of luck

My reasoning for offsetting was to try and start the spiral just a little sooner. I guess no line stacking is why some guys are offsetting it? I assumed offsetting the butt could cause line stacking in some instances even tho it hasn’t been my experience. I actually offset one pretty far maybe 15-20 degrees, I’d have to check. No line stacking and no ill effects casting.

So that brings me to a new question. Has anyone ever actually seen line stacking on a modern level wind casting reel with any spiral, butt at 0* or otherwise? Talking bass/freshwater...for now.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2023 10:16AM by Matt Ruggie.

Just checked and the rod I mentioned in previous post, the butt guide is offset 20*......JFYI

I'm still making my way through getting to my first spiral wrapped rod - but I have spent hours and hours reading and watching videos and thoroughly researching with an open mind and a critical eye. I found a post elsewhere talking about the Roberts wrap method and how Ralph O'Quinn implemented it with some mindful modifications it seems - he is an absolute believer in this method over a simple spiral or other methods that more quickly get to the 180 guides. Here is a post from this forum regarding the Cagey Hook method mentioned above, and it seems similar to the Roberts wrap and most definitely have a similar approach - total concern for function and efficiency - overlapping the two focuses on line flow and rod loading.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

@JEFF now that I'm rereading that thread its you!! haha

I believe both Kent Griffen and Ralph O'Quinn have articles in Rodmaker regarding their spiral wraps.

To me, mathematically speaking, it reads as if these two approaches would be the most efficient and the most intricate. After reading some things that Ralph had to say about it I'm totally sold by his enthusiasm and advocacy - likewise with Kent's willingness to explain and then help others with his way in order for them to experience the improvement. Quick and dirty seems to work fine for most and that's fine, but I'm not sure what the measurable difference would be between any of the spiral methods - but if you're building for maximum performance, if you build using quality components and not Alibaba guides and seats, then you might as well take the long and clean way to wrap.

Building rods in MA, Building the community around the world

Ralph O'Quinn had this to say one day when he walked into my shop and saw the first Simple Spiral - "You know, that's really all you have to do, isn't it." From that day forward, he built with the Simple Spiral.

.............