Been out of the game for about 10 years. Is the new guide concept still a good way to set up a spinning rod? I'm building a 2pc 10' spinner (SU1207F-2-MHX) for surf casting and using a van staal vr150 with 50lb braided line (12lb diameter in mono) with no connecting knots. I'm trying to build it as light as possible while being able to cast as far as possible.

Also any suggestions on guides that are good, light and not easily damaged by sand?

Thanks!

I think most recommend to the KR guide concept for spinning rod these days.

Yes, the NGC is still a 'good' way to set up a spinning rod, and will probably be for the rest of time. It is a concept that was developed with much research and thought! And there are some situations where the NGC may be the best way we know how, at present, to set up guides for best rod performance for a particular blank, situation, or technique. (Talking about spinning blanks here)

The KR concept, as Stan states, is the latest and greatest guide train model for spinning rods right now. I like the Angler's Resource KR-Concept Calculator for an accurate starting point for guide placement. (Click on the sponsor list to the left and look around the site.)

Spend a few minutes (I spend hours) to educate yourself on the KR-Concept. Then, do the same with the New Guide Concept (NGC). Then, you can make a conscious and informed decision between the two.

That's usually my default setting with about everything: Research my question thoroughly and make my choices on what I like best!

Great question! Welcome back to the game!

Jon,
Fuji’s NGC was a real game changer when it debued; still is for that matter. However, KR Concept has taken it even a step further. If you need the robustness of double-foot guides, then stick with NGC. If you are careful with your equipment, then KRC is the way to go. Keep in mind that KRC is designed around limper braid (as you stated to be using) than stiffer mono / fluoro. While I admittedly do not build many 10ft surf rods, I employ KRC for virtually all my spin builds = arguably the best guide train out there.
You mentioned a concern with “sand damage” to guides but not saltwater corrosion. All the different ceramic inserts used by virtually all the manufacturers are pretty much impervious to wear or grooving. Frame corrosion is a different story. For saltwater use, Ti (titanium) is your best bet. 316 SS would be next with 302 / 303 / 304 AKA 18-8 SS being next in line. While Fuji uses an alloy of the latter, their relatively new Corrosion Control (CC) treatment is proclaimed to be virtually impervious to saltwater applications. I use the CC guides quite a bit and have had no corrosion issues.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Talmo Laying Down the Data!

Right On!

The KR guide system is a New Guide Concept System. The New Guide Concept, or NGC, is not dependent on guide type. It can be employed with single or double foot guides, or a combination of both. It is based on the idea of quick line control and the utilization of small running guides on the upper half of the rod which reduce swing weight and inertia. There are many New Guide Concept variations and the KR system is just one of them.

..........

Thank you guys! I appreciate all the great information. Now to research it up so I can start building. Thanks again!

The KR concept is a modification or evolution of the NGC, and both were developed by Fuji. The KR concept was specially developed for use with braid and smaller running guides. It employs high frame small ring reduction guides to rapidly control and choke the lines coils so the line smoothly enters small low profile running guides. For surf rods, both the NGC and KR concept have been successfully used. If using mono or heavy braid the NGC may work better, and if using lighter braid then the KR concept might be a better choice. Your choice on which concept to use, both work well. For surf rods and other heavy duty rods Fuji developed some specialized double foot KR reduction guides such as the RV25, RV20, RV16, KW12M and KW10M. The problem with these guides is they only come in a titanium frame, and thus are expensive. SeaGuide also makes some high frame small ring double foot KR- like reduction guides that can be used on surf rods, and they come in both titanium and Stainless steel.
Norm

I'm curious if anyone has done any testing between an 'old school' NGC setup vs a KR setup. I would expect increased performance from the KR setup, particularly on light freshwater rods, but I'm curious how much of an improvement is to be expected? I always used to build on the variation of the NGC that used a two guide transition and typically a size 20 high frame/match spinning guide for the stripper guide. Typically size 6 sf fly for the running guides. Casting performance has always been very good, is there a noticeable or measurable difference with the KR setup? I'd expect a snappier rod due to the weight savings on the running guides....

Rick Handrick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm curious if anyone has done any testing between
> an 'old school' NGC setup vs a KR setup. I would
> expect increased performance from the KR setup,
> particularly on light freshwater rods, but I'm
> curious how much of an improvement is to be
> expected? I always used to build on the variation
> of the NGC that used a two guide transition and
> typically a size 20 high frame/match spinning
> guide for the stripper guide. Typically size 6 sf
> fly for the running guides. Casting performance
> has always been very good, is there a noticeable
> or measurable difference with the KR setup? I'd
> expect a snappier rod due to the weight savings on
> the running guides....


In terms of casting distance you won't see much difference. But you have to understand the entire point of the original NGC wasn't strictly increased casting distance. If you pick up an older spinning rod with the common Cone of Flight guide style set up and then pick up any good NGC rod you will immediately notice a difference in balance and swing weight. The NGC is simply more comfortable to fish with. Because the KR set-up typically chokes the line down about one guide quicker, you save a tiny bit more weight, although most of that is in the middle of the rod where it is not realized as much as anything you have on the upper half to upper 1/3rd. There is no difference in running guide size on NGC or KR rods unless you want there to be.

You can learn a great deal by trying things out yourself. Mock up a blank with a good NGC system and go cast it a couple or three dozen times. Do the same with a KR mock up. For kicks, mock up the same blank with the American Tackle MicroWave system. You may find very slight distances between each of them but nothing earth-shattering. Once you have any good, properly implemented modern guide system on a blank, you're back to the point where you realize that any given blank is only going to cast so far.

............

I see the OP is looking for the ability to cast as far as possible, then I see his choice for the reel , a Van Stahl VR50 with 50 pound braid . The VR 50 model has very limited line capacity with 50 pound braid .


I misread it , it's not a VR50 it's a 150 .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2023 01:55PM by chris c nash.

For anyone interested, a couple of years agoI conducted a test (War of the Worlds; COF vs KR Concept) to show the difference in casting distance between modern KRC and old-school COF. While I did not include interim NGC, others replying discussed NGC as well. Good reading albeit quite a lot.
[www.rodbuilding.org]

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

There are still a lot of rods being built wrong the old way. The rapid reduction Concept system works best, so far.

Jon,
For your setup, I would use a size 25 tall stripper guide, then, a size 12 transition guide and finally run size 6 runners to the tip top and a size 6 tip top.

If you are concerned at all about any guide drag, (not likely), you could increase the runners and tip top to size 8 and you will be good to go.

With a longer surf rod like you have, you could start with the stripper at about 24 to 28 inches down the rod.

You might tape on some guides with slightly different setups and do some test casting before finalizing your guide selection and placement, before actually wrapping them in place.

If, when doing test casting you are finding that the line is whipping against the rod blank, either increase the size of the guide and or the height of the guide for the first guide.

Best wishes.

I once had a set rods, all the same, one with microwave, one with NGC, and one with KR concept. The KR rod consistently out casted the other two. Had them so people could test cast and decide for them selves which one they liked. The difference in casting distance wasn’t great, but the KR rod was consistently further. The first time I tried the KR concept I was hooked, and have never looked back.
Norm

If you're willing to pay the price the ultimate guide train that will provide the best possible distance AND be super lightweight would be a RV 25 , RV 16 to a KW12M or KW10M (Your choice but with braids 30 pound and under the best choice is the KW10M, with braids exceeding 30 pound the best choice is the KW12M ) . Choke guide will be something in the 7 to 8 MM size range with runners in the 7 MM size if using 50 pound braid .



This is solely based on your reel and line choice .



With 50 pound braid you will achieve much better line flow by adding in a 16MM ring after a size 25 MM stripper . To go from a 25 MM high frame to a 12 MM as the next transition guide with 50 pound braid is really pushing it especially on a reel like a Van Stahl , the 16 MM ring will help greatly in this area. If you were fishing lighter braid it would be fine.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2023 10:39PM by chris c nash.

Hi all - I ran across this doing a google search of K-series guides. Pretty good article from Anglers Resource trying to explain things. I learned a few things. Might be a good read to better understand the differences...

[anglersresource.net]

There is a ton of info here! Thank you all for the replies. Any suggestions on a way to keep the guides straight while test casting? I try to tape them good, but they always fling around when I test cast.

jon,

It takes a little bit extra work, but is a secure and temporary way to hold guides while testing for me:

I use a fly-tying bobbin and 6/0 or 8/0 Uni fly thread. Wrap the guide down about 10 or 15 wraps, put in a pull loop, do five or six more wraps, pull the tag through and trim it.

Easy to remove later with a razor blade cut parallel to the guide foot.

That actually sounds pretty good. I'm going to try that, thanks!