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Flexcoat style rollers
Posted by: Al purvis (---)
Date: January 27, 2023 09:38PM

Does anybody have suggestions for building my own rollers to replace the tailstock of my lathe with? I was looking at the flex coat lathe as a better alternative to making cork grips instead of using a mandrel so I’m not having to ream out my rod grips. I’m sure I could buy the rollers from flexcoat or something similar to that elsewhere, but I wasn’t sure if I could make them myself for cheap?
In case I’m describing this poorly here is the concept of what I’m wanting: [www.hffcustomrods.com]

I was wanting to remove the tailstock to my lathe and build the rollers to height of my headstock.

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Re: Flexcoat style rollers
Posted by: Herb Ladenheim (---.68.237.4.hwccustomers.com)
Date: January 27, 2023 11:45PM

Al
Hi.
I have been using the FlexCoat Cork Lathe for 20 years to shape cork and very hard stabilized wood. I also do not use a mandrel - I epoxy and shape my grips directly on the blank.
I glean from your post - that you want to use the power of your lathe and use the FlexCoat tower rests.
Sounds like a great combo to me. My drill generates 2500 RPM - which you need for good shaping. I’m sure your lathe will do as good.
You can make the frame and adjusting mechanism by yourself. The FlexCoat rollers protect the blank, I think, better than others that do not have the “rubber” wheel attachments.
Personally, I would just purchase them from FlexCoat. There are 4 wheels per tower - vs three.

I would recommend that you contact John Cates at FlexCoat and discuss your needs.
Herb
CTS Rep.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2023 11:30AM by Herb Ladenheim.

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Re: Flexcoat style rollers
Posted by: Mark Talmo (71.147.59.---)
Date: January 28, 2023 12:19AM

Al,
The most precise way to shape your grips CONCENTRICALLY is to bond the grip (rings or premade) onto the blank and use the blank as the mandrel. This does require the ID of the headstock to be large enough to pass the small end of the blank though and chucked somewhat close to the fore-end of the grip with a live-center in the butt of the blank. I am uncertain exactly what your setup is (headstock in particular) or your fabrication abilities. Rollers, store-bought or fabricated from patio door wheels, will work but iffy compared to a more rigid setup. More details of your current setup would help.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Flexcoat style rollers
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: January 28, 2023 09:16AM

Al,
I have built many of these over the years to support work on the lathe or the full length rod lathe.
Note the aluminum stand with the ball bearing rollers.
Essentially, aluminum bar stock 1/4 inch rod for the verticals and thumb screws to tighten and loosen the sliding support bars.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Another example of the same design.
[www.rodbuilding.org]

I just go down to the metal yard and buy aluminum bar stock.
I buy the ball bearings on line. They are very high quality inexpensive skate board bearings.

I suppose that I have my time and effort into the builds. But today the total cost of each support would be in the range of $10 or so.

When I use these, I put three layers of masking tape on the rod blank to avoid scuffing the blank.

This is the same design that the rod building school where I learned rod building; used to support the thousands of rods that they have built for clients, as well as the many many rods built by students.

IN these cases, the cork is drilled/reamed out to fit the rod blank at its designated location, glued and clamped together.

Then, the rod is inserted into the full length rod lathe, and the length of the rod is supported by multiple rod rests of this design. For very soft tipped rods, I would use up to 5 of these supports to secure the rod.

I used a 3600 rpm, single speed motor to spin the rod. One had to be very very careful about the placement of these rod rests to avoid harmonic destructive oscillation which would result in the rod blank blowing up.

I built many many rods using this setup, but never had any rod blow up on a new build.

---

But, after purchasing a good lathe, with tail stock, I eventually stopped using the full length rod lathe and sold off the parts and pieces of the lathe.

It is just much simpler and easier to use the commercial lathe to do the work.

Note:
To avoid a huge amount of reaming cork after a grip is glued together, I do the following.

I take the individual cork rings and ream them to the size of the rod blank at the location where it is going to be installed on the rod blank.

Then, I take a mandrel that is essentially the same size as the smallest hole in the reamed cork rings.

Then, starting from that front cork ring, I will essentially create arbors made of masking tape to increase the diameter of the mandrel to essentially replicate the diameter of the rod blank.

I use threaded rod for a mandrel in sizes up to 5/8ths of an inch. I almost never use a mandrel as small as 1/4 inch because the rod blanks that I use are nearly all larger than 1/4 inch.

As a result of using only the larger sizes of threaded rod, the rod is plenty stiff to use as mandrels on the lathe.

Then, after gluing up the cork with titebond III wood glue, I let it dry overnight. The glue will cure on the outside, but due to its nature needing air to cure, it will not have setup on the inside. At that point, I pull the glued up grip off of the mandrel, and use the mandrel itself to wipe out the uncured glue on the inside of the grip. I also wipe off the uncured glue from the mandrel using water, since - in this state the glue is water soluble.
I st the grip aside and let it cure overnight, at which time the glue has setup and the grip is ready to turn.

I slip the grip back onto the mandrel, tighten the washers and nuts at the end of the grip and shape it as desired on the lathe.

Then, I remove the grip from the lathe and take about 5 minutes of clean up with a reamer to do the final sizing on the grip to fit the blank and carry on to the next step in rod building.

Summary:
Even though you can use a full length rod lathe as you are proposing by the use of the indicated rod rests, for myself - it is no longer my favorite cup of tea.

The wood lathe is a much easier, simpler method of making and shaping of grips.

If I had the money to spend for expensive rod rests, I would redirect the money into purchasing some dedicated "dream reamers" or equivalent to make your reaming job a 3 minute job, rather than an hour job doing it by hand.

Good luck



Best wishes.

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Re: Flexcoat style rollers
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: January 28, 2023 09:42AM

P.S.

Even though I seldom use a full length rod lathe any more, I used bits and pieces to assemble one for a one off rod that I was building.

Here is the power that I used for the rod lathe:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

This is the rest of the setup, using a combination of my previously made ball bearing rod rests and the rod rests that I use on my power wrapper:
[www.rodbuilding.org]

These rod rests, which I use on a daily basis were used to support the tip section of the full length rod lathe:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Although not nearly as nice nor as easy to use as the CRB stands, they are functional and have been used to build many many rods over the years.

The cost t build these rod rests was about $3 per rod rest. The base is plastic cutting board stock and the arms are inexpensive aluminum bar stock. The bearings are skate board bearings with an O ring on the outside surface.

I measure and adjust the bottom arm and lock it solidly with the threaded bolt on the lower arm. Then, I swing down the upper arm to capture the rod. The tension on the upper arm is set so that it takes a significant pressure to move it into place. This force is such that the upper bar remains in place as the rod is built.

Best wishes.

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Re: Flexcoat style rollers
Posted by: Al purvis (---)
Date: January 28, 2023 02:24PM

roger wilson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> P.S.
>
> Even though I seldom use a full length rod lathe
> any more, I used bits and pieces to assemble one
> for a one off rod that I was building.
>
> Here is the power that I used for the rod lathe:
>
> [www.rodbuilding.org]
> p/photo/20897/title/1-2f2-hp-dc-motor-with-taig-ch
> uck/cat/508
>
> This is the rest of the setup, using a combination
> of my previously made ball bearing rod rests and
> the rod rests that I use on my power wrapper:
> [www.rodbuilding.org]
> ?photo=20898
>
> These rod rests, which I use on a daily basis were
> used to support the tip section of the full length
> rod lathe:
>
> [www.rodbuilding.org]
> p/photo/6969/title/steady-rest/cat/508
>
> Although not nearly as nice nor as easy to use as
> the CRB stands, they are functional and have been
> used to build many many rods over the years.
>
> The cost t build these rod rests was about $3 per
> rod rest. The base is plastic cutting board
> stock and the arms are inexpensive aluminum bar
> stock. The bearings are skate board bearings with
> an O ring on the outside surface.
>
> I measure and adjust the bottom arm and lock it
> solidly with the threaded bolt on the lower arm.
> Then, I swing down the upper arm to capture the
> rod. The tension on the upper arm is set so that
> it takes a significant pressure to move it into
> place. This force is such that the upper bar
> remains in place as the rod is built.
>
> Best wishes.

Roger,

I have been doing grips the way you do them currently but an issue I’m having is doing cork recesses for hooded fly seats. If I do the recess first in an individual cork ring, once I glue up and clamp all the rings, the wall of the recess gets smashed a little and it isn’t fitting the reel seat hood properly at that point. I don’t have a good way to mount the grip after clamping up and then drilling a recess straight so I was thinking that building directly to blank is my best option (although I am terrified of blowing up blanks).

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Re: Flexcoat style rollers
Posted by: Herb Ladenheim (---.68.237.4.hwccustomers.com)
Date: January 29, 2023 10:00AM

Al,
You MUST first glue-up the ported ring and one or two after thak. Clamp lightly. Let cure before you install others and clamp.
Herb
PS - what do you mean "Blowing up blanks?? Breaking them?? Making a mistake on the grip??

PPS - You never want to chuck your blank into the lathe.
You should - #1- either insert a bushed (with tape) steel rod into the butt end of the blank - OR - #2 - use a system FlexCoat's Roger Sieders and I developed years ago to attach the tip of the male ferrule to a short metal rod inserted into the chuck.
#1 facilitates a more accurate turnng of the grip. But, if you want, you may email me for description of #2.
Herb



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2023 10:18AM by Herb Ladenheim.

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Re: Flexcoat style rollers
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: January 29, 2023 12:41PM

Herb,
Definition of "blowing up blanks"

If one turns a full length rod on a lathe at 3600 rpm as I have done many times, the placement of the rod rests is critical.

When I used to do this, I had a single speed 3600 rpm motor to spin the rod under construction.

Normally when doing this I would use a piece of solid stock - fiberglass or graphite that was tapered, either with sanding the solid stock or by building up a smaller piece of solid stock by adding masking tape to create a tight fitting masking tape arbors.

This gives the builder a nice handle to insert into the chuck and clamp it tightly.

Now, comes the critical part:

Since the object of my attentions was to shape a cork grip from the cork rings that were all glued together along with the reel seat, I would always place the first rod rest, two inches in front of the fore grip if one was present, or in front of the reel seat if one was not present. By having the first rod rest in this position, the grip was solidly secured from the back by the lathe chuck and in front by the solid clamping of the rod blank.

The next two or things are really really important.

Since, I did not have a slow or variable speed start up on the single speed 3600 rpm motor, I would blip the start switch on and off, as I was holding the rod blank in my hand about 2 feet up the rod blank from the first rod rest. While doing this, I would be lightly running my hand up and down the rod in the general 2 foot distance up the blank - feeling for a Null point of oscillation in the spinning rod blank. I might have to repeat the process two or three times to find the null point in the spinning rod blank. This 2nd rod rest was always the most critical to position. Once I found the point there there was effectively no oscillation or vibration, this would be the first null point and I would secure the rod rest at that point and tighten the clamping effect of the rod rest to secure the rod blank at that location.

Then, I would continue on down the rod at about two or perhaps longer intervals looing for the next null point. Secure a rod rest at that point tighten the clamping effect of that rod rest and move on to the next rod rest and continue on down to the tip.

If, one was working with a very large and strong and powerful blank, it would only be necessary to use about 3 or 4 rod rests, because the blank would be stiff enough to not "whip" and oscillate.

But, if one was working with an ultra light, or say a #2 fly rod with a very long and limber tip - if a one piece rod,it might be necessary to have as many as 6 rod rests to secure every section of the rod blank from whipping.

----------------
In the course of building rods using the full length rod lathe, I only had the misadventure to blow up one rod.

I had built a new rod for an associate. He dropped the rod off asking that I do some additional minor changes to the shape of the grip. In this case, the rod was a new completely finished rod. In this case of a fully finished, rod, the problem of rod balance is many times worse than a new rod under construction because a finished spinning rod as this one was, there is a set of spinning guides all on one side of the rod blank that really magnify the balance issue. To conter act this effect, I had taped equal sized guides on the opposite side of each of the guides on the rod. However, the 2nd time that I flipped the on switch of the motor, I was just a bit tardy turning off the switch as I was looking for the 2nd null point and in those three seconds, the rod went into destructive oscillation and the rod blank exploded.

So much for the new rod.

However, the blank broke about 10 inches above the grip. To salvage the grip and reel seat, trimmed off the rod blank and then, removed the butt cap and located another lighter power blank that would slip up the inside of the current blank in the reel seat. Thus, is medium actin rod became an ultra light rod. Then, I built him another new rod that was a match to his original rod on my nickel since It was my action that destroyed the first build.

So, yes, Herb: It is very easy to destroy a rod blank if spinning a full length 7 foot rod blank with the rod being supported at the wrong spots on the blank. Harmonic destructive oscillation will get the blank every single time.

But, if building on very high powered, thicker walled blanks with stiffer tips there is almost no likelihood that one would ever have the problem. The thicker walled, stiffer blanks are simply much less likely to every experience this event called harmonic destructive oscillation.

----------------------------------
A white paper on Mechanical vibration and oscillation leading to failure:
[en.wikipedia.org]

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Re: Flexcoat style rollers
Posted by: Herb Ladenheim (---.68.237.4.hwccustomers.com)
Date: January 29, 2023 06:27PM

Roger
99'9% of my builds are 4 piece 9' fly rods. So, no such worries.
Herb

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Re: Flexcoat style rollers
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: January 30, 2023 04:18AM

Herb,
Copy that.
So, with 4 piece fly rods you are only spinning the butt section when you turn a grip, and thus no length to cause issues.

Take care

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Re: Flexcoat style rollers
Posted by: John Cates (Moderator)
Date: January 30, 2023 10:00AM

Al

Give me a call if you want to talk about this. 512-858-7742

Also, here is our video on our Flex Coat Lathe Setup
[www.youtube.com]

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

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Re: Flexcoat style rollers
Posted by: John Cates (Moderator)
Date: January 30, 2023 10:33AM

[www.youtube.com]

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

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