Al’s work with at Lew Childre on the Speedstick was big. I used a friend’s for a few casts and realized my discount store Olympic was not the same thing. It was the first good rod I ever used.

Randy Penny with Seeker and now United Composites has high contributions in that realm. My favorite saltwater build is on an UC GUSA Blank.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2023 09:31PM by Kendall Cikanek.

This thread has over 2800 views. That shows the interest this subject has generated. It started with a challenge to the validity of a testing method. Most comments are just noise in the system. And the original challenge has not been backed up with objective data. It's about time for that challenge to be backed up with the data that the challenger has stated exists. It's time to put up or shut up. It has nothing to do witih Al Jackson or Don Mook or Tom Kirkman or anyone else. It is only about whether TNF and the "vibrometer" correlate. It is time for the challenger to back up his claim with objective data. If he chooses to not back up his claim with objective data, then that is indicative that his challenge is invalid. And that TNF and the "vibrometer" agree as objective measurements of rod sensitivity.

The lack of disclosed data doesn’t prove the null hypothesis.

"For the purpose of this discussion, I am defining "sensitivity" as the measurement of vibration along a tube."

Once again we have someone using their definition of "sensitivity" and imposing it on an other's definition. A definition that was clearly defined with the above sentence, quoted from the opening post of this thread. I'll add some more noise to the system and say that I have had personal experience with the same thing in past threads The difference with this thread and the threads I am referencing, is that a definition was clearly stated from the outset of this thread. I had to later explain my definition of a word or phrase,

Anyhow ..... we have two parties that are clearly not working with the same definition.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2023 06:31AM by David Baylor.

“If we have data, let’s look at data. If all we have are opinions, let’s go with mine.” – Jim Barksdale, former Netscape CEO

Aleks Maslov Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> However, if you take the same material and pattern
> and slow the taper of the tip, as compared to
> example 1, (just enough to have a slower recovery
> than in example 1) but use a mandrel that has an
> aggressive taper all the way down to the butt -
> you can match the blanks power (both blanks will
> be equal in flex, as the bigger "hole" picks up
> stiffness, as does wraps of material in example 1)
> except in example two, you will have a slower
> recovery, and higher vibrational sensitivity.
>
> Best,
> Aleks
>

Aleks,

thank you very much for this in-depth answer, I think I got your point. It seems that bigger O.D. in the lower section of the blank (example two) - correlates with higher vibrational sensitivity ? In other words, from your example I deduce that for the vibrational sensitivity the aggresive taper of the lower section of the blank is more important that the taper of the tip section of the blank. Is this right ?

What kind of other corrlation did you find between vibrational sensitivity and other features of the blank ? Is there a feature primarily responsible for higher vibrational sensitivity ?

What about weight and vibrational sensitivity ? Would you still say that "weight is a deterrent to performance" or you are going to change company's mission ?


This discussion is really fascinating, If I only can I would take opportunity and bring some blanks and rods and test test them with a vibrometer at the show - what an ooprtunity you created for rodbuilding community !

Best regards,
Pavel

After all is said and done there will be individuals that will pick up the least sensitive tested blank and say for them it's the most sensitive lol.

I'm with Mick, independent data. Nobody involved with an axe to grind.

Also, a more recent stop in Al's travels since the old Lew's days: [www.rodbuilding.org]

Anyone wishing to test their own blanks on their own “vibrometer” can email me for instructions on how to easily and cheaply run TNF. My email address is open.

After all, there are a lot of indications that TNF and the “vibrometer” get the same answer, and no proof that they do not.

chris c nash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After all is said and done there will be
> individuals that will pick up the least sensitive
> tested blank and say for them it's the most
> sensitive lol.

Very true.

Who's to say these vibrations we feel doesn't travel up the line, through the line as it passes through the guides, to the bail or spool, and through the reel foot to one's hand? lol.

Well, certainly a sensitive topic. Does a crooked top affect the vibratory oscillation? ;)

>> Well, certainly a sensitive topic. Does a crooked top affect the vibratory oscillation? ;) No. But the mass of the tiptop does.

>>Who's to say these vibrations we feel doesn't travel up the line, through the line as it passes through the guides, to the bail or spool, and through the reel foot to one's hand? lo

Of course what we feel travels up the line to the rod. How else could any disturbance get to the rod/hand.?

Nothing "travels" up the line. Something pulls on the line which pulls on the rod tip. When actually fishing, what is termed a "vibration" is really a cadenced tension on the line.

.......

Vibration: Periodic back-and-forth motion of the particles of an elastic body or medium, commonly resulting when almost any physical system is displaced from its equilibrium condition and allowed to respond to the forces that tend to restore equilibrium.

Vibration: Is a mechanical phenomenon whereby oscillations occur about an equilibrium point. The word comes from Latin vibrationem ("shaking, brandishing"). The oscillations may be periodic, such as the motion of a pendulum—or random, such as the movement of a tire on a gravel road.


Vibration: a : a periodic motion of the particles of an elastic body or medium in alternately opposite directions from the position of equilibrium when that equilibrium has been disturbed (as when a stretched cord produces musical tones or molecules in the air transmit sounds to the ear)

b: the action of vibrating : the state of being vibrated or in vibratory motion: such as oscillation


We term them vibrations, because that's what they are.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2023 03:47PM by David Baylor.

Six pages in and no agreement on what sensitivity is. Not surprising. We can't measure fishing sensitivity, at least not of blanks. Maybe we could measure fishing sensitivity with a robot holding a rod and dragging a specified lure on a specified line over a specific man made bottom structure and measuring what feedback comes to the rod handle. Maybe not. You can't measure bite sensitivity, because every bite is different. As Tom states, vibration has nothing to do with feeling a bite or the bottom. It's tension, or lack thereof. So we know that the vibrometer and TNF don't directly measure sensitivity in a way that applies to fishing. Are they surrogates for sensitivity? Maybe. But it is a bit silly to say that TNF is not related to sensitivity by saying it doesn't correlate with the vibrometer. You can't prove the vibrometer measures sensitivity any more than Mick can prove TNF measures sensitivity. Mick isn't claiming that. Aleks is. So yes, Aleks is wrong. The vibrometer doesn't measure fishing sensitivity. Could it correlate? Yes, it probably does. Could TNF correlate? Yes, it probably does.

The "vibrations" imparted by mechanical devices for these "tests" do not replicate the "vibrations" generated in real world fishing situations. Do you realize that anything you can feel with a fishing rod while fishing you can also see at the rod tip? Pay close attention next time out and you'll see that this is true.

..............

Peter Yawn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Six pages in and no agreement on what sensitivity
> is. Not surprising. We can't measure fishing
> sensitivity, at least not of blanks. Maybe we
> could measure fishing sensitivity with a robot
> holding a rod and dragging a specified lure on a
> specified line over a specific man made bottom
> structure and measuring what feedback comes to the
> rod handle. Maybe not. You can't measure bite
> sensitivity, because every bite is different. As
> Tom states, vibration has nothing to do with
> feeling a bite or the bottom. It's tension, or
> lack thereof. So we know that the vibrometer and
> TNF don't directly measure sensitivity in a way
> that applies to fishing. Are they surrogates for
> sensitivity? Maybe. But it is a bit silly to say
> that TNF is not related to sensitivity by saying
> it doesn't correlate with the vibrometer. You
> can't prove the vibrometer measures sensitivity
> any more than Mick can prove TNF measures
> sensitivity. Mick isn't claiming that. Aleks is.
> So yes, Aleks is wrong. The vibrometer doesn't
> measure fishing sensitivity. Could it correlate?
> Yes, it probably does. Could TNF correlate? Yes,
> it probably does.


Good post. As I have often said, before you can talk about sensitivity you have to define what it is. In the original post Aleks made, he defined sensitivity in terms of what the vibrometer would be measuring. Within those confines, the vibrometer will do what it was intended to do. So the question for the individual is whether or not it measures what you feel when fishing.

.................

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Do you realize that anything you can
> feel with a fishing rod while fishing you can also
> see at the rod tip? Pay close attention next time
> out and you'll see that this is true.
>
> ..............


Tom, I have to disagree. There are rods with a solid tip where you can observe the tip as a bit indicator but sensitivity of such rods can be pretty bad. There are rods with with very sharp tip that which almost do not bend under the lure yet the senitivity is excellent. I fished both and it takes some time to get used to the second type and rely only on what you feel in hand - however such rods are invaluable during night fishing when you can not observe the tip.

Best regards,
Pavel



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2023 04:28PM by Pawel Tymendorf.