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Pages: 12Next
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Guide sizing
Posted by: Roger-Huffman (---)
Date: December 20, 2022 07:36PM

First post here. Looking to build a few rods and wanted to get some input from forum members on guides as things seem to have changed a little since the days of winding using telephone books. I've got three NFC's to use for drum and cobia rods and I'm planning on a simple spiral wrap. I'll be using Avet SX's on two of them and a Diawa Lexa on the other. The line (50lb braid) comes off the Avets 2" above the blank, I don't have the Lexa yet but it's a big low profile reel so I'm guessing about 1 1/2". The blanks are one each MB 808-1, BB 806-1 and SW 768. Drum and cobia are strong fish in the 30 to 50lb range and I don't know what to think about these single foot runners but maybe the KB's would hold up. I plan on using Fuji cc aconite guides. For the butt guide maybe a 12 at 0 deg.followed by a 10 at 180 deg? Double foot three leg all the way or shift to the KB's in the tip? And scrap the 80lb leader! Thanks guys.

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Mike Ballard (---.ip-54-39-133.net)
Date: December 20, 2022 08:05PM

I would normally be a proponent of all double foot guides on such rods. But I have been doing some testing with single foot guides on medium heavy saltwater rods. I would stick with double foots through the lower half of the rod and then switch to single foots on the top half. BUT! The strongest single foot guides I have found in terms of durability and not twisting or tearing out of the wraps are the Fuji fly rod single foots. These are even more durable than the KW "belly guides" believe it or not. They key lies in their very low frame. They sit right down on the blank and therefor so not allow for much leverage to shift or twist them in the wraps. So far so good. I would not have thought it but they seem to be up to the task.

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Roger-Huffman (---)
Date: December 22, 2022 10:59PM

Mike thank you for your reply. I went on some of the sponsors web sites to look at single foot fly rod guides and structurally what you are suggesting certainly makes sense but it seems like those low guides would introduce line slap against the rod during a cast and our cobia fishing is sight fishing (as opposed to bottom fishing) throwing bucktails and a little distance can sometimes mean a lot. What I've come up with is a 12kw fuji, then use a 8kw as a bumper followed by two 6kw's and then kb6 runners and a lg6 tip top. I feel this will work out as a nice casting rod for that 2oz bucktail but I'm completely new to this whole kr concept and have a little "first winding jitters" going on :-) . Does anyone see something I'm overlooking or is it time to order parts?!

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: December 23, 2022 12:33AM

Roger,
If line slap against the blank is a concern of yours (rightfully so) with low profile guides, then why would you choose to introduce excessive blank contact with a spiral wrap which goes from a 0* butt guide to a 180* second guide? A runner guide train on the bottom of the blank will never allow the line to touch it while a 0* to 180* reduction train certainly will.
Allow me to suggest that, for your first build, you build a conventional casting guides-on-top or spinning guides-on-bottom; get the basic fundamentals down before delving into more involved arenas.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Mike Ballard (---.ip-54-39-133.net)
Date: December 23, 2022 09:40AM

Roger- No the lower frame guides do not create line slap. By the time you get to that point the line is traveling straight out, not spiraling around in circles as on the first guide or two on a spinning rod. This is why the New Guide Concept works so well on spinning rods with very low frame runners. The line is controlled and moves parallel to the rod. There is no up and down or circling movement. You will be fine. The majority of the world's bass casting rods are made this way now.

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Norman Miller (Moderator)
Date: December 23, 2022 09:44AM

I normally do a spiral wrap using three guides to get to the 180 position. The butt guide at 0, to about 60, to about 120, and then 180 for the rest. Casts very well, and there is no torque. I position the guides to get the straightest line path I can from the reel to the runners. Then nice thing about building your own rod is you can test cast it and modify the layout as you see fit. The simple spiral will also work well but usually has a small low profile “bumper” guide at 90 approximately half way between the butt guide and the first 180 guide. The small bumper just keeps the line off the blank. Either one of these will work. I think your guide sizes (12, 8, 6, 6 KWs to single foot 6 runners) will work Single foot runners should work fine and reduce the weight in the tip section, but your choice.

Norm

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Roger-Huffman (---)
Date: December 23, 2022 10:45AM

Norm, when you say a low profile bumper do you mean you would use another frame style other than a kw? If so what frame would you consider? Thanks.

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Norman Miller (Moderator)
Date: December 23, 2022 11:08AM

Here is a thread concerning the simple spiral wrap that may interest you.
[www.rodbuilding.org]
Norm

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Kendall Cikanek (---)
Date: December 23, 2022 12:25PM

I would error towards at least moderate strength on your rod guides. Even with the “South Florida cam”, my Avet SX increases drag rates very quickly. On a large, fast running fish this can be quite a shock with braided line and fluorocarbon leader (even without 80lb ones). These rods are a size class where small weight savings in the guide train wouldn’t seem to be worth having a rod down.

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Roger-Huffman (---)
Date: December 27, 2022 10:31AM

Thanks everyone for your replies. And thank you Tom for putting together this forum, it's a great way to get Information on building rods.

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Ken Delbridge (192.55.54.---)
Date: December 27, 2022 02:32PM

For any salt build targeting fish over 10lbs I would recommend running double foot guides all the way to the tip top, and use moderate strength ALPS or Fuji guides. But more importantly, what leader/terminal line rating are you going to run on each rod? I feel that plays a more important role in understanding the guide types I need vs. what I might think I want.

When pulling on ocean species the lack of torque is really nice with the spiral wrap. There's a mudhole video that is great for explaining the strategies. Be mindful of placement, offsets, and how they impact your line stacking.

That Lexa will need a slightly offset stripper guide because of the level wind (edge of the ring needs to be lined up to 0deg to the top of the reel seat). It will be a chore to use that reel if you don't accommodate for the levelwind -> it's a must-have if you are spiral wrapping for that reel or any reel with a levelwind.

Your Avet SX's won't need that, but choose the side of the reel that you want the line to stack on, so you only have to push the line one direction when reeling in (the wrap direction will determine which side the line will stack on). Example - on my 65lb jigging rod I spiraled the guides to the left with a 45deg angle on the stripper guide so I only have to reset the line to the right side of the reel when retrieving the bait or fighting a fish, the line naturally stacks to the left side of the reel with that configuration. A 0deg offset on the stripper guide will still stack line in the direction of the spiral, but not as aggressively as a 45deg angled approach.

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Roger-Huffman (---)
Date: December 27, 2022 03:00PM

Thanks Ken, I'll be sure to try that when I tape the guides up for some casting and pulling dry runs.

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: December 27, 2022 04:19PM

Roger,

I built something very similar to what you are trying to do. I wanted a rod that would be for casting off jetties, piers, beaches and boats for Bull Reds, Kingfish, Tarpon, Wahoo, Triple Tail, small Tuna, Dolphin, and Ling (or anything else 20 to 100 lbs.). Baits to be used include large artificial crank baits, plugs, poppers, spoons, jigs, spinners, plastics, live and dead baits. Because it is for casting, I wanted a blank in the 7'6" to 8' range.

The reel I chose was for it was a Conventional Star Drag Seigler SM Reel.

The build came out like this: Batson Rainshadow Special Edition Green Finish E-Glass RCLB79ML 7’9” X-Fast rated for 20 to 40 lbs line and 2-6 oz lures. Grips and reel seat American Tackle rear grip G2 16” cut down to 14.75” with a rubber butt piece, foregrip is EDPM 12” X 1.125” and the reel seat is an Alps CAH18LX-WTS-B Black Reel Seat Size 18 that is set in the uplocking position. The guides are REC Cerecoil pearl black NiTiCr frames with zirconium inserts; stripper CSGB16, CSPGB8 and CSPGB7s to the tip, 9 total with a Fuji KG Black Ti SIC ring 8 tip top. The guides are set in a Forhan revolver style spiral wrap.

The REC guides are all single foot Cerecoil except for the stripper guide near the reel and it is a double foot Cerecoil guide. REC Cerecoil guides have a ceramic zirconium insert in a Ti Cr Ni wire frame that you can actually be bent down to the blank and it will spring back to its original position. To my knowledge no one has built a rod for this application using the REC Cerecoil guides. Because the insert is somewhat thick, the inner diameter of the ring is less than a more conventional guide of the same size. Example: A Cerecoil size 7mm is more like a conventional guide size of 6mm.

Application test:
I had originally wanted to use 50# braid on the reel but instead I went to a 25# Yo-Zuri Hybrid fluorocarbon / nylon line. I can cast a mono type of line better than a braid. I was able to get about 275 yards on the reel. I really did not intend to catch anything large, but as luck would have it, I did. I rigged up a dual hook leader, 3’-4’ in length, with a lady fish that I had hooked very deep with a small lure fishing for trout and redfish. I cut it in half and used the head half on one hook and the tail half on other. I cast it out about 100’ fairly easily trying not to cast the bait off. A large artificial lure should easily cast about 150’. I was eating a sandwich and drinking a beer and all of a sudden, the rod bends over moving my small flats boat. The drag started clicking off at a very fast rate. After about an hour, I landed a black tip shark that was at least 6’ in length and about 75 lbs. I released it to attack my stringer another day. The rod cast as well as expected and can handle fish in the range that I expected (20# to 100#). The guides held up well without any distortion afterwards. It came out to be a solid rod that I look forward to fishing more with.

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Roger-Huffman (---)
Date: December 27, 2022 09:56PM

Well Lance I'd say you have defined the term "custom rod" with that build. Those guides certainly are a good fit for my throw it in the back of the truck and take off down the road mentality. For the last 20 years I've been using scrim rods with 40% glass built by Biscayne Rods. They are tough but I've decided to modernize a little ,thus the NFC's. You have a really good reel there, the surf casting crowd here on the Outer Banks use them but I can get better distance with a lighter and narrower spool.

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: December 28, 2022 04:46AM

Roger,
This was all new to me, because I really basically only fish inshore bay these days, but I have a lot of experience on the Pacific coast of mainland Mexico from back in the 80s and also offshore Gulf of Mexico and Pacific Tropical waters. So, what would you recommend for a conventional bait casting reel? Something that will cast the farthest. Price is not an issue. The blank was sold to me by Bill Batson after I explained to him what I was trying to accomplish. I know that glass scrim blanks can take a lot more than a pure graphite blank, but something lighter than glass that can take the punishment of a big fish would be a plus. I guess that is why you went to the NFC blanks, because they were lighter. Have you looked at conventional Shimano reels and there casting capabilities? Something like the Talica, Torium or the Trinidad. They are much smoother than the Siegler or the Avets. Not sure on the Daiwa conventional reels. I do like their spinning reels. Because the reels are so heavy, I did not think that a lighter blank would make much of a difference. It would not be like making a bunch of blind casts that would wear you out.

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Roger-Huffman (---)
Date: December 28, 2022 03:19PM

Lance actually one clear, sunny, calm morning cobia fishing my boat rolled upside down and all my rods fell out and THAT's why I'm getting new ones! That being said I do have some opinions on conventional casting reels. In salt water the metal in Diawas has always held up better than that in Shimanos for me. Except for a Shimano MG(magnesium) I have- go figure. Also I like the convenance of magnetic adjustment. Every reel made for casting casts well, the only difference I see is in the weight of the spool and it's width. Those Avet SX MC's do a good job but when Avet came out with their jijing models I tried one and what a difference. Lighter more narrow spool, same gearing and drag and the weight was more centered on the rod. It felt better and I was more accurate with it. I also bought a Lexa 300(same approximate weight and made to cast) but didn't see any improvement in distance although it was easier to work a lure with. For line I like braid, the more supple the better. That Siegler you have spools a lot of line, which is weight. Do you need the yardage or did the mag and casting ability of the reel influence your decision? To put things in perspective casting from the yard along the boat dock the Avets would throw a 2oz bucktail 190-200ft. 210-220 once in awhile. I'm curious to see if these new blanks will stretch that out a little.

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Roger-Huffman (---)
Date: December 28, 2022 03:19PM

Lance actually one clear, sunny, calm morning cobia fishing my boat rolled upside down and all my rods fell out and THAT's why I'm getting new ones! That being said I do have some opinions on conventional casting reels. In salt water the metal in Diawas has always held up better than that in Shimanos for me. Except for a Shimano MG(magnesium) I have- go figure. Also I like the convenance of magnetic adjustment. Every reel made for casting casts well, the only difference I see is in the weight of the spool and it's width. Those Avet SX MC's do a good job but when Avet came out with their jijing models I tried one and what a difference. Lighter more narrow spool, same gearing and drag and the weight was more centered on the rod. It felt better and I was more accurate with it. I also bought a Lexa 300(same approximate weight and made to cast) but didn't see any improvement in distance although it was easier to work a lure with. For line I like braid, the more supple the better. That Siegler you have spools a lot of line, which is weight. Do you need the yardage or did the mag and casting ability of the reel influence your decision? To put things in perspective casting from the yard along the boat dock the Avets would throw a 2oz bucktail 190-200ft. 210-220 once in awhile. I'm curious to see if these new blanks will stretch that out a little.

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: December 28, 2022 04:58PM

Roger,
I did want the yardage on the reel because I thought I could use it for red snapper jigging around the near shore rigs here. They are in about 60' to 200' of water and you never know what else you might hook up. The magnetic spool adjustment is definitely a plus on the SM reel. I see where you are going and I believe it will work. I don't think you will have a problem using the single foot KB guides on the spiral build. I would also try to find a lightweight reel seat to keep the overall weight down otherwise you are defeating the purpose of the build using those blanks. That would also go for the grips, go light. On my spiral builds I keep the line as straight as possible going around to the bottom of the blank. I do not do a simple spiral but rather a Forhan style because it keeps the line straight toward the tip. Let us know how it turns out.
Lance

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Roger-Huffman (---)
Date: January 21, 2023 05:58PM

Wrapped the guides except for the bumper on the first rod today and I've come up with a couple of questions for the forum. I've always used right handed reels and have read on here that you run your spiral on the same side of the blank as your reel handle which would put my bumper on the right side of the rod as viewed from above the reel. I'm considering switching to a left handed reel. It seems to me that theoretically it wouldn't matter which side the bumper is on. Or does it? Also I know some people who use spirals talk about line stacking on one side of the spool if you use a level wind reel. I read somewhere recently about something the Australians do to solve this problem. By slipping in a guide ahead of the stripper the tendency to stack supposedly goes away. Has anyone heard of this or tried it
Thanks

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Re: Guide sizing
Posted by: Michael Tarr (---)
Date: January 21, 2023 11:39PM

I prefer the spiral to be opposite of the reel handle. I prefer my right hand for reeling so I do my spirals to the left. My right hand on the handle helps counter any twist to the left that may happen.

I like to create the straightest line path possible to the first belly guide. My stripper guide is always offset, never at 0 degrees. When testing the angle, reel the line thru the guides and pay attention to how long the line rubs the stripper guide ring. I adjust to whatever degree needed to minimize the amount of line contact as possible. This also applies to the other guides that complete the transition.

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