I’m working on my very first build - a cheap kit that had everything for 20 bucks. I decided to see what some different techniques felt like adding some flare to the wraps. Single/double inlay wasn’t too bad, spiral inlay with size D and smaller than A felt alright, spiral with A and smaller than A was tough - plus at that time I decided to give hand tensioning the thread which worked better in one sense but caused issues also. I tried an olive branch with smaller than A but think it was too thin to be noticeable and it was tough to line up.

Hand tension felt like a better wrap with more control, but ended up with some weird line twisting thing happening. I cut one of the tie offs too short and had to reward a bit, but if the guide doesn’t hold I now know how to fix my own rods haha - this rod building thing is wicked freakin cool.

I’m going to try to attach pics here in the app, I couldn’t online and never received a confirmation email. I know I tried some challenging stuff for a first time builder, but had to appease my curiosity and practice to know if I want to try it for my Christmas builds. I think I’ll throw in a single inlay or maybe a trim band if I end up feeling comfortable after a few more.

Please let me know what feedback you have - even for my crazy attempts at next level wrapping. Also do you know why it twisted like that?

Im trying to post multiple pics, but it only lets me do one at a time. My third one won’t upload at all.

4 - the Gray is size D and the purple seems thinner than A - which is the orange



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2022 12:33AM by El Bolinger.

Maybe I was just faster than the server… 5

6 - starting to get that twist

7 - whole lotta twist at the end

The twist may be coming from your manipulation of the thread. Do you have a had wrapper setup or are you just hand tensioning. I highly recommned a hand wrapper setup with a thread tensioner of some sort. When I started I built my own using the flex coat tensioner, built a lot of rods that way.

Looks like your wrapping up the foot would be helped by grinding the feet down to provide a more gentle slope. With Fuji guides I just brush the foot across with 150 sandpaper to provide a little "bite" for the thread to climb. Might work with these guides.

I would recommend keeping it simple until you get your techique down pat. It takes practice, but comes pretty quickly.

Ed, certainly a fine job for first attempts, but I would like to bring something to your attention.

I would not recommend any thread wraps to be put onto any custom rod that extend beyond the foot of the guide. Its possible when epoxy is applied to thread wraps of this length there are problems that can come along with it I have personally experienced and swore I'd never do again.

The rods bend and flex. And the epoxy spread out over that length of thread wrapping could begin to crack off and separate from the blank. I have a rod now with shorter thread wraps than I see here and I am having issue with epoxy not being able to handle the rod flexing and the problem begins.

It can also be suggested that extended thread wraps can add weight to the rod as well as dampen its ability to transmit vibrations in addition to the epoxy issues.

So over the years I have come to make a definitive conclusion to keep my thread wraps only on the guide. Just something to consider...

Keep up the great work! Nothing more enjoyable than fishing with your own creations.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2022 09:42AM by Kent Griffith.

@MICHAEL - thanks! I got the deluxe start up kit from getbit and it came with the Batson hand wrapper - which I can now see in person seems significantly less quality and a lot less intricate than the CRB hand wrapper. I only went with the get bit kit instead of the mud hole kit because of the dream reamers that get bit came with vs the non-chuckable reamers in the mud hole kit. Live and learn I suppose, I thought I could've just got the reamers and CRB wrapper but wanted a complete kit to make sure I didn't miss/forget anything.

I definitely felt like I got a cleaner quicker wrap taking the spool off of the hand wrapper and just holding the thread by hand, on the wrapper it was more difficult to find the right tension, angle the thread slight enough to wrap up and not jump - by moving the slider ring with the thread through it and not moving the blank. I'll revisit it and try some different movement/holding techniques - I kept moving the blank while wrapping and bumping into other guides. The guide set came ground already, except the runners so I thought they left them because they didn't need it... but I was wrong haha. FOr actual wrapping I will definitely be keeping it simple, this was just like a base line test to see where I was from the jump and get a feel for where I want to go.

@KENT - thanks, that definitely makes sense, I went way ahead of the guides just to get a feel for wrapping - but for real wraps I'll heed your advice. How far in front of the foot do you start (3 turns 5 turns 10 turns)?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2022 09:59AM by El Bolinger.

Wow El!

I thought I saw some inlay work there, too! You are not afraid to go off the high dive your first time swimming!

Michael and Kent gave you some great tips that will make a world of difference. (How many miles of thread have you two wrapped, I wonder?)

The first thing that came to my mind with the thread twist issue is that you may be rolling it off the spool like a spinning reel rather than a casting reel. If the thread comes off the spool perpendicularly (casting reel), there will be no twist.
Also, if you are pinching the thread with your fingers or nail, you may be unravelling some of the twist in the thread like a squeegee. The twist gets pushed down (below the pinch point) and gets tighter and tighter.

Last simple thing not covered above: Use your thread packing tool every three or four wraps to gently slide the wraps close together - no gaps. No need to use a lot of force - just slide the threads side-by-side like hotdogs in a package.

Keep it up, El!!!

Holding the thread spool in your hand will cause line twist. If you don’t like the tension device on your wrapper than try something different. You can always use a stack of books. Run the thread between the pages of the book, and close the book. For more tension just add more books or some kind of weight on top until you get the tension you like. You can put several different spools of thread through the book, just use different pages. Grab the color you want and start wrapping. You really don’t need anything fancy to wrap a rod. This has been a tried and proven method for tensioning thread over many years and has worked great for a lot of people. For me, I find it much easier to have the tension device behind the rod blank. I bring the thread over the top and turn the blank towards me. I start the thread very close (a few mm) to the toe of the foot, just close enough to accommodate a thin trim wrap (3 to 5 wraps) and a few wraps with the main thread before climbing the toe of the guide. Practice makes perfect.
Norm

I wrapped many rods through books in the past, and it works as good if not better than any other method. I'm not sure what other people do if using the book method, but I also drop the spool (on its side of course) in a coffee mug. Spool in coffee mug---->through the books with tension to your liking---->onto the rod. The line peels off the spool smooth as silk!

Wow El . Inlays and twisted thread inlays ( put those two twisted thread inlays together and you'll have a saw blade inlay just reverse the twist on one ) . Way more courage than I had on my first wraps . Keep it up . The advice you've gotten in this thread is excellent . Since you're into inlays , if you haven't seen it , you might take a look at this video . [www.youtube.com]
Keep up the good work .

Edit : For some reason the link I sent starts almost to the end of the video . Don't know why . Not my intent .

Second Edit : All of the advice about using books with the thread spool in a cup is excellent tried and true . The only thing is that , with your hand wrapper or with the books . there is no way to maintain tension on the thread when you make a mistake and have to unwrap a few turns . You probably won't have as much trouble with that as I do but , when it happens , that little bendy rod on the CRB wrapper is worth it's weight . I guess is that some of the folks here could suggest a way you could rig a little bendy rod on the rig you have . Simple matter to drill a tiny hole at the correct angle and use tip cement to glue it in place . Only question is what to use for the rod and how to put a round end on it for the line to pass through .



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2022 04:00PM by Ronald Atchley.

I don't know why thread would twist coming off the usual tension devices. If you're taking it off the end of the spool like a spinning reel lets out line, then that is most likely the reason. For every loop coming off you get one twist.

El, you might consider trying a thread bobbin. Get the hang of keeping the thread a little behind the wrap so it "self packs". When you start to climb up the guide foot you will have to decrease your angle for the first few wraps. To begin with it would probably help if you had someone else turn the rod when using the bobbin. Just an idea.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Regarding how far from the foot tip to start the wrap, I start it as close as I can get it while ensuring that the thread is "locked" onto the blank, usually about 5 wraps, I think.

Thanks for the feedback and the tips and the youtube link yall!

@LESLIE I think your right about the pinching and pulling back the natural twist of the thread - that makes the most sense because I was rolling it off like a casting reel onto the blank. I also watched a video of Bob Taylor hand wrapping and holding the spool and I caught a little twist in his line - less pronounced because it was a short wrap, but nonetheless it was there.

@NORMAN - thanks, I tried "your way" and think on a wrapper I like the thread from behind as well, lets me see the progress of the wraps a little more clearly. I think I just might try a book next time I want to wrap 2 lines together for a spiral.

The Batson wrapper has a short little metal loop that slides, but doesn't bend, to put the line through on the opposite side of the spool, maybe I can try to rig something up to put a sort of wire with a loop in its place. But it seems like people like to have a set up similar to the CRB hand wrapper, thread spool and tension loop behind the blank so maybe I'll just set something else up entirely. I think at first I'll try at me through the ring, then back out away from me under the blank, then over the top to wrap and see how that does for tension and guiding the line.

As has been mentioned, you definitely need to pack your wraps much better. As Leslie said, pack every 3 or 4 wraps, that way if you happen to notice a gap you missed, you won't be trying to push as many wraps to try and close the gap.

And yes, guide feet are ground at the factory, but that doesn't mean they are ready for wrapping. Especially with the thicker guide feet you find on the reduction train guides. I use a small jeweler's file to dress guide feet. Being sure to knock off any burrs that may have resulted from filing. I make sure to knock them off the tip, sides, and bottom of the guide's foot. I use high thread tension when wrapping, and I don't want to take a chance of damaging the thread with a sharp edge on a foot.

Filing also does what was mentioned earlier, and gives the surface of the ramp a little texture that helps the thread climb the ramp. BTW, I even dress the ramps and guide feet on smaller running guides. It only takes a moment, and for me, makes getting the thread starting up the guide foot, much easier. Also, after filing I either hit the filed surface with a black or silver magic marker, depending on the guides finish, just so a slight gap in the thread won't show a different color through.

Also if you are using lighter color NCP thread, applying finish makes them turn somewhat translucent. If you don't have the background under all the thread the same color, there is a chance you will have a color difference in your thread. It's no different than using different base coats under paint. The base coat determines your final color. Anyhow ......


Kudos for trying the thread art and inlays. I know I wouldn't have tried it until I had gotten simple wrapping down better, but that's me. lol

As far as using your hand to keep tension on the thread. Yes it works, but .... and this is for me personally, I want both hands free when wrapping. Were I you, I'd come up with a way to free both hands. I took a look at a Batson hard wrapper Get Bit offers. Certainly not an optimum set up IMO, but workable. I see where others have mentioned they like having the thread coming up from behind the rod and that they turn the rod towards them. I am just the opposite. I want to be able to see the entire length of the thread as it goes on the rod. I also don't use one of those rod things to keep tension on the thread,

My thread comes straight off the spool and goes to the the little loop thing and then directly to the rod. If I need to turn the rod backwards to fix a thread that crossed over itself, I simply turn the rod and the thread spool backwards at the same time. Once I clear the problem I go back to wrapping. I now have a power wrapper, but when I first started I had built a hand wrapper similar to the Batson one I looked at. Those metal pegs on the rod stands are used to secure the blank and to keep it from moving if you stop wrapping, And don't move the rod in the wrapper. Use one of your hands to slide the loop fixture on the wrapper.

And yes, the thread twist is from pinching the line between your fingers

El Bolinger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> @KENT - thanks, that definitely makes sense, I
> went way ahead of the guides just to get a feel
> for wrapping - but for real wraps I'll heed your
> advice. How far in front of the foot do you start
> (3 turns 5 turns 10 turns)?

I don't put any wraps on the blank by itself. I don't start on the blank. I start on guide foot at leg and work towards the end. And there is a physics reason for starting at the leg due to load requirements that are not present anywhere else on the guide foot.

I am a technical person who studies physics and use it to my advantage when I can. And as such I have studied the required physics of guide attachment to my rods and come to some very different conclusions than what is discussed here on this forum.

When you study the physics of what a guide is doing, I came to the conclusion that the only place necessary for guide load bearing attachment is right at the leg. If I could attach a thin steel ring around the guide foot at precisely that location, it would be more than enough to carry the load.

So the rest of the single foot guide wrap is only there for one reason- to prevent guides from twisting. And as such, the entire guide foot does NOT need to be covered with thread wraps and they surely do not need to flow off the guide foot and onto blank doing nothing of value, and are in truth only adding more weight, reducing sensitivity or the rod's ability to vibrate is muted a little bit more with each rotation of thread around the blank. So, the ideal goal is to minimize this by keeping the thread wraps only at necessary locations and at best tensioning for each location I want a little give at the right places.

If you will notice most guides are not squared off on the ends and some people go to extremes to grind them down to make a nice sharp ramp for thread wraps. All of this is unnecessary. And is only done for looks. It surely has NOTHING to do with load bearing.

Guide brands round off many guide feet. And this is what a lot of people believe is best is to grind them down to a sharp ramp. Curious, but if engineers who make guides wanted them ground down to ramps at the ends wouldn't they do this as part of the guide manufacturing process? Curious why engineers DO NOT design the ground down ends for pretty decorative thread wrapping at that location? Surely if engineers believed it was necessary it would be done. Since it isn't... that tells me everything I need to know.

I choose to approach this differently. I will only wrap the part of the guide foot that is NOT rounded off. When I reach the rounded off part of the guide foot I stop. I do not thread wrap the rounded off ends. No reason to. When I put the epoxy on, you can't even tell. And I use micro guides with shortest feet possible on all my bass rods. This may not work on heavy saltwater rods I just don't know as I never touch those. On my micro guides the foot is only about a 1/4" long. My thread wraps less than that. Work perfectly and no issues. Would not do it any other way now.

Even the wrap tension is studied based on physics. For example, double footed guides need most attention for this due to their length resisting rod bend. For guides on top the rod bends away from the ends of the guide foot. For guides on the bottom, the rod bends the blank into the ends of the guide feet and center of guide tries to lift off blank. So the best way to get this into fabrication thinking is to draw visualizations of what is happening as rod bends and steel stays straight. Simply look at the results of what is being shown and adapt the process of guide attachment to blank based on most ideal tensioning at right places.

But for double footed guides, a thin steel ring around each foot right at the leg is all that is necessary. The rest is decoration on a useless steel splint running down the blank. The rest of that double footed guide strapped to the blank is like a splint keeping rod straight when it tries to bend, the guide resists, and forces the now ground down sharp ends of the guide feet to become like sharp knife scratching and stabbing the ends of the guide foot into blank over and over and over every time it bends that sharp end is forced into the blank. I view it as possibly causing damage depending on how it is done so I no longer wrap like that.

I am not a decoration person. I am purely technical and strive for the purely technical. Pretty rods to me are like pretty hammers and pretty jack hammers and pretty shop tools. I just don't work that way. I do not paint my hammers and put snake skin on them and pretty decorations and flowers and feathers and paint and pretty thread wraps all over the blank covered in epoxy and any useless decorations. A rod is nothing more than a tool to me. An object designed to provide specific function. I reach strictly for that ideal specific function. All else is useless to me. The last thing I want while fishing is to be distracted from a potential strike because I am too busy looking at my pretty rod and all the fantastic leonardo davinci quality art on it. I go out of my way to do the opposite. I want my rods to not be a distraction. I do not want my threads to stand out as a different color from the blank if possible. So the only color matching I do is thread to blank color to make thread disappear as much as possible. Go away thread. Do not bother me with bright pretty colors and mix and match and all that stuff. I even prefer raw unpainted blanks, and prefer black guide colors to minimize contrast. I want my rod to disappear visually and only give me its best in performance only. I'm not an artist clearly.

So my perspective is quite different than the common recommendations, but since you asked... "How far in front of the foot do you start (3 turns 5 turns 10 turns)?"

I don't go off the guide foot. I start on the guide and finish on the guide. I will only put precisely the amount of thread wrap to get the job done and not 1 cm of anything beyond necessary.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/18/2022 09:12AM by Kent Griffith.