What methodology do you use, if any at all?

I usually go with what the manufacturer specifies for the blank and what's on the decal. I've found this to be useful as a starting point, and typically put the decal on the rod as a reference point for the maker, model number, etc. However, on SOME rods, I scratch my head about the lower and upper ends of the ratings listed on the decals. What works for me seems to often be in the middle of that range somewhere.

As I am always going back a re-reading the CCS literature, and following all the lively discussions about the purpose and usefulness of CCS on this forum, something occurred to me: If rod maker's designations of power can be all over the place, then the line and lure ratings can, too.

Do any of you try to dial this factor in by measuring it?

I do like you do in using the label or blank maker's recommendations if I have them. If I don't , I don't put anything on the rod, just the CCS data.

I have not found a big error with respect to the lure ratings, and I just ignore the line ratings. I don't see any value in them.

The biggest errors on blank makers' descriiptions are with the subjective descriptions of power and action. as you have previously mentioned. I have to conclude that some makers have a lot of people doing them and they are done relative to their personal conclusions. There is also the liklihood that a rod's intended use alters their descriptions. For example, if the blank is marketed as a drop shot blank then it can be of pretty low power and still be called medium power. If it's an ultra light where the history of the "ultra light" type of blanks is that they are pretty floppy, then one with an AA of 50 can get a descriiption of "Fast."

I just cast a variety of weights to find the top and bottom ratings, line rating just correlates with that. Like you said many blanks have a distinct sweet spot near the middle of that range.

Leslie, like you I just go by the lure weight ratings the manufacturer has listed for that blank. While I don't necessarily adhere to the line weights a blank is rated for, I do consider them when I am looking at a blank to choose, as I think at times they can give clues to how a rod may react under a load. It's been my observation that of blanks with lure weight ratings that are the same, or within 1/16 of an oz difference, that the blank with the lighter line weight rating is going to have more of a bend into the midsection of the blank when the rods are under equal loads.

Of course that hasn't always played true. I built two drop shot rods. One on a blank rated for 1/8 - 3/8 oz and a line rating of 4 - 8# test, and one built on a blank rated for 3/16 - 1/2 oz, and a line rating of 6 - 14# test. And while one would logically think the blank with the higher lure weight and line size rating would be more powerful, and have more of a backbone, just the opposite is true. And while some of my posts in recent CCS related threads may make it appear as if I think the system is junk. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The value of CCS, at least IMO, is in how you apply it. I apply CCS as a blank selection tool. I've done CCS testing on all but 2 of the rods I've built. If I really like how a rod with such and such an IP and AA fish a certain bait, then I know if I want to build another rod for those same kind of baits, all I have to do is select a blank with the same or very similar CCS numbers. I've used that method very successfully in several instances.

. In fact, the first spinning rod I built, I built on a blank with CCS numbers that were very close to one of my factory rods I used to own, and had done CCS testing on. I was amazed at how closely the rod I built, fished like the factory rod I tailored it after.

There is a formula in part 1 of the CCS articles that allows you to derive casting weight ranges for casting and spinning rods, using the rod's IP number. The formula is contained in Table C I haven't used the formula to check if it matches the lure weight ratings on any of the rods I've built, but I did use it to check the lure weight rating on the factory rod I mentioned earlier. I wanted to see if the CCS formula would give the same results as the factory rod's listing. It was spot on with the factory weight range.

I designed the casting weight range formula for the CCS. It was done by reverse engineering of sorts. It works fairly well until you get to stuff like surf rods, etc. Casting weight ranges are difficult to nail down because the input of the caster has much to do with the optimum lure or line (fly) weight. This is why you will generally see a range of weights listed.

Line ratings are mostly subjective. Typically line ratings were intended to keep you from over-lining a rod blank and making the blank the weak link in the chain instead of the line being that link. Braided line sort of threw a kink in that sort of thing. So most simply advise the range of line strength that they think is reasonable for the type fishing the rod is being used for.

..............

On all my builds especially spinning based surf and inshore rods I always use line that's rated considerably lighter than what manufactures list and it's not because I'm worried about heavier braid (20 pounds and up) being so strong that the rod will break before the braid does, it's solely based on the massive performance increase it provides over heavier braids. Experienced anglers will never break a rod if they're well versed in keeping the drag settings of the reel in an appropriate range .


Choose braided lines based on what performance you need to get out of your rod/reel combo and avoid choosing a line based on what monofilament pound test you used before switching to braid . Many choose braids based on the mono equivalent diameter they used to use so they look on the box and it says that since they fished 14 pound mono that means the equivalent braid diameter they should choose is 50 pound . Of course you can go that way but you're losing so much of the advantages braid has to offer by doing so.

Decades ago surf anglers used to easily land giant stripers on lines in the 20 pound range on a large variety of different spinning reels . Monofilament that was rated at 20 pound test really did have an average breaking point of around 20 pounds which is the complete opposite of modern braids . Even 10 pound test braids will have a breaking point rating in the mid to high 20 pound range .

Spooling a spinner with braids 30 pound tests and up is crippling your rod /reels efficiency which kills it's performance potential . Another thing that kills a surf rods performance potential is using running guides in the 9 to 10 size range which is unfortunately what many still come standard with . That one irks me but I'll leave that for another day .

You should decide based on your individual testing what line and what weights work the best for what you expect to accomplish and not base it on what the manufacturers happen to print on the lower half of their blanks .

Thank you everyone!

I enjoy and learn from the mix of personal experience and information. I will check out the casting weight formula. Thanks, Tom!

Chris makes some very solid points about evaluating the selection and use of braided lines. As chris stated, I found the smaller diameter of braids, and their suppleness, allow for casting performance improvements which are as much or more valuable than the test strength..
The only downside to the really small braids is that, for me, they can whip-finish a knot around my tip top (when jiggling a snag out). The heavier braids are a bit stiffer and resist the half-hitching.

I always wondered about the use of #50-65 lines for things like pitchin and flippin. I get you need a heavier line when fishing heavy cover, but that seems plenty heavy! Maybe the heavier braid has a larger diameter which slows the fall of the bait, is less likely to saw itself into a mushy log, or some other reason. Not saying the heavy braid isn't useful, I've just not heard much discussion of why #65 braid is selected in such cases.

I don't think most people have a clue just how ridiculously overkill heavier braids are . You can pull a tree stump sunken in heavy mud off a lake bottom with 50 pound braid it's ridiculous how strong these lines are . Just make sure the knots you tie are appropriate and won't slip and you should never have the main line fail . I have seen and experienced myself more than a few times when large striped bass , redfish and unfortunately very large stingrays in excess of 30 pounds have been hooked and horsed in to the beach with heavy drag settings on 14 pound braids and the braid never failed . It's just insane how powerful braided lines are even in the lighter test strengths .

All you need to do is make certain that you don't experience repeated failures is to inspect the line from your connection point to a good 10 to 12 feet up the line to check for any fraying . I'm not talking after 20 cast and retrieves I'm talking much more often that that . That section of the line will be the most vulnerable to failing. I see anglers on open beaches throwing 2 ounce top water plugs with 40- 50 pound braid . Why on earth would you do that ? The line stays in the upper section of the water column the majority of the time , it's a top water plug . Get rid of that 50 pound and go with 20 pound at the most which will greatly increase your distance & feel at the end of the line . There are very few Atlantic coast surf fish that won't be quickly whipped and landed with 20 pound braid.


I need to point out that my comments on braided lines relate mostly to surf fishing because that's what I'm all about and it's the only thing I've done regularly over the last couple decades . I tend to forget that most on the board are into so many other types of fishing that I personally don't do much of anymore and I forget that fact . I can see where heavy braided lines are beneficial to other types of angling where casting distance with a spinning reel is not paramount .

Leslie, as far as the use of 50 and 65# braid goes, you hit the nails on their heads. When you're flipping, at least the way I do it, the line is draped over my thumb and index finger with the line riding on my thumb and finger nails as well as part of the skin. As you play line out the line is sliding on those surfaces. 20 and 30# braid will cut you much faster than the 65# braid that I use.

You're also right about the larger diameter braid slowing the fall of a bait, which can be a benefit. Flipping and pitching are low energy presentations compared to normal casting.The line slowing the fall means you can use a heavier bait which, on higher power rods with tip sections that are more stiff, that added bait weight means the tip will load better, even with the slower tip speeds generated when flipping and pitching.

Everything you said about smaller braid doing things that can cause a bait to hang up are dead on as well.

Then there is the whole thing that even with just high powered bass gear, 20# braid will pop like it isn't even there on a strong, short line hook set. I've personally had it happen several times back before 65# braid was even available. Maybe the line had some unnoticed abrasion that caused it to pop so easily. I know it wasn't knot slippage, that;s for sure.

Anyhow .... as Chris said braid is extremely strong, on a dead pull. But when you shock it as in a hard slightly slack line hook set, it's not all that hard to pop the 20# and under tests with nothing more than heavy power bass gear.

David and Chris,

Thank you for your feedback based on your experiences! You make many great points!

Chris paraphrased: Braided lines are very strong, maybe stronger than their stated line test. You can handle out-sized fish on smaller lines without sacrificing casting distances.
My takeaways: When I am fishing more open water, I can downsize the braid-test to make longer casts - like is important in jerkbait fishing to maximize depth and length of time in the 'strike zone'.
Crankbait fishing the same applies. Also, lighter braids are an advantage when I may need to make a longer cast to reach fish on a shallow point the boat cannot get to, or from bank trying to reach fish 'out there'.

David paraphrased: Heavy braid is a benefit in certain applications, like short-range flipping; the line plays a role in both presentation, snag avoidance, and surviving short-range-heavy-leverage moments.
My takeaways: I love flipping and heavy braid makes sense for this technique. You gotta wrestle fish out of heavy cover with speed and power if you hope to land them - even moderate size fish.. Back in the day, when braids first came
out, I noticed it did have a certain amount of brittleness to it on a short leash. Thanks for the reminder. That sudden shock/breakage can also happen when backlashing the cast of a large and expensive glide bait,
launching the lure out into the lake trebuchet style. Great for sieging a castle

Thanks, gentlemen.

The discussion somehow went from talk about rod/blank performance (or perceived performance based on a manufacturer's descriptions) to the nuances of braided lines. It was all very interesting, but if I may I'd like to get back to the original topic. Unless I am completely in another world, the way I see it is that most agree that the CCS system is a sound system whereby one can get consistent results comparing rods/blanks to each other and by virtue of that information at least get into the ball park of how that rod/blank will perform.

I've made this statement before in other discussions, but nobody has ever responded to it. My contention is that it is still very difficult or impossible to order a blank from a manufacturer (at least for the first time) using the manufacturer's description of the blank and expect it to have any semblance of what you were expecting based on that description. Yes, you can run your CCS testing until you are blue in the face, but it will simply tell you what you ended up with, which is not necessarily what you were looking or hoping for. It's sort of like fishing for a blank. When you're actually fishing, you may have some intended target in mind, but when you throw your offering out there and hook up, you don't really know what you end up with until you get it back.

I had a stroke of good luck recently when Norm recommended a blank for my intended purpose that he has a personal knowledge of from past experience. He had already done the homework on the blank. Bada Bing! But it seems to me that if you're out there looking for a blank with the action/power you are looking for in particular, it's a crapshoot at best.

Only a very few manufacturers list CSS data on their blanks. So the only way to possibly get CSS data on a particular blank of interest is to ask here for that i formation. A number of people on this site do have CCS data on a variety of different blanks and most are willing to share that data. So ask.
Norm

The CCS wasn't really intended to deliver lure and line ratings as casting entails the caster's input as well as the lure weight. I did cook up a formula for lure weight casting range for one of the articles but even then it's still a range. Otherwise I don't think the CCS is going to help you much in that area.

The manufacturers do offer lure and line ratings for their blanks. Again, the lure weight rating is a range, not a specific lure weight. The caster's input has to be factored in. Heavier lures typically require less effort from the caster and lighter lures may require more. I don't think the manufacturers are too far off on their weight ranges.

Line ratings are very subjective. I wouldn't worry about them too much. Use the line for the type fishing you're going to be doing.

..........

Leslie Cline Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That sudden
> shock/breakage can also happen when backlashing
> the cast of a large and expensive glide bait,
> launching the lure out
> into the lake trebuchet style. Great for sieging a
> castle
>
> Thanks, gentlemen.

Yup, I had been using 20# braid and my just opened Spinnerbait caught wind - one very small gunshot sound later is in the bottom of the pond. Within a week or so happened again, but with about 20ft of braid still attached and floating so I grabbed it. Since then I've bounced between 30-40 pound and haven't had another issue like that again.

Granted I'm new to this all, but if I were building for someone I'd set the rod up and cast in the back yard with a number of different weights to get a good feel for it. I feel like most ratings are just slapped on a rod by a manufacturer based more on expectations from the blank design than actual physical testing. Keep the top end low though in case the person you're building for gets experimental with how out of the rating they can go as some do.