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What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: El Bolinger (---.bstnma.fios.verizon.net)
Date: November 22, 2022 11:47PM

Do you guys think coatings have any measurable effect on guide weight (such as a black or chrome version of same guide set)?

I don't see any info about guide weight when looking to purchase, do you just kind of go by experience/visual and material input to guess?

They come in so many sizes and shapes it's crazy - American Tackle Microwave and Airwave and all that look appealing - your thoughts?

If two sets were same materials can I just get the cheaper one or is there somehow actually an unseen difference (Fuji vs CRB)?

Does all this apply to tip-tops too?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/28/2022 12:38PM by El Bolinger.

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: El Bolinger (50.233.0.---)
Date: November 28, 2022 12:40PM

Anybody have any thoughts on this?

Why is Fuji better than CRB if they state the same material make up?

Is it just all the size of the guides?

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: November 28, 2022 02:06PM

How a material is processed can affect its performance dramatically. Cold rolling, forging, and heat treating including annealing are examples, but there are more.

Some believe that "titanium" is pure titanium, but the fact is that all "titanium" guides are alloys of titanium, and most likely specific to the maker. I know of one maker of titanium guides that I avoid since their guides can hardly take a single bending cycle, like in straightening a bent guide, without breaking.

I have my favorites based on many years of experience, and most other builders do too. While I am a retired engineer and am technically oriented, even having taken a couple metallurgy classes, I don't purport to be an expert on guide metallurgy . And I doubt if many others here are either. So I would be careful taking these posts as gospel. I think you get about what you pay for, but that's just an opinion. I think you need to develop your own preferences based on your own experience and research.

Why is Fuji better than CRB? I have no experience with CRB, but I do witih Fuji, and it's all good. I've had a couple tiptops on cheapo rods groove, but were they Fuji's?
I don't know. I do know I've never had a Fuji guide or tiptop that I have installed fail. Period.

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: November 28, 2022 02:32PM

Ditto on Michael's comments.

The guides of today all work for building a fishing rod.

By and large the vast majority will last the life of a fishing rod with zero issues.

Just use the appropriate guide for the rod being built and in 99% of the cases you will be happy with your choices.

By the way, virtually all of the guides being sold will last just fine with no issues what so ever. If you want to use a 50 cent guide - go for it. If you want to use a $20 guide - go for it.

For many rods and for many users of rods - the difference between a 50 cent guide and a $20 guide is not noticable and both are enjoyed by the user.
On the other hand, there are many users of rods who prefer their perceived difference between the 50 cent guide and the $20 guide.

As the saying goes - beauty - and I should also say the functionality of the item is in the eyes and the hands and feel of the user.

So, build the rod with the components that you choose, for the reasons that you find important to you and catch lots of fish with the rod/s that you build.


Be safe

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: November 28, 2022 02:42PM

I think it's important to understand that for saltwater applications most builders want more corrosion resistance than is available on 50 cent guides. You just cannot get titanium alloy guides for 50 cents.

Fuji's Corrosion Control are quite affordable and offer what is claimed to be almost titanium alloy corrosion resistance at a stainless steel price.

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: Richard Bowers (---.ptld.qwest.net)
Date: November 28, 2022 04:17PM

The weight of your set of guides on a rod are a minor factor in the overall weight of your finished rod, but you are able to make some choices to lower their weight.

One of the biggest variables is the ring material, whether ceramic or stainless steel. There are many different ceramic formats, some enabling the use of thinner rings thereby reducing their weight. The Fuji Torzite guides are an example of this. PacBay Minima guides are an example of guides with Stainless Steel inserts, and various other manufacturers are also go producing their own version of guides with Stainless Steel inserts. With the Stainless Steel insert, the actual opening in the guide will be substantially larger than that of a copmparable ceramic guide, hence you are able to go a size smaller down the line and should be able to reduce the total weight of your guide train.

You may also think single-foot guides will be lighter, but some have beefed up frames to handle the stresses on that single foot so may actually weigh more than a comparable double-foot guide!

Another factor is the frame material and shape. There are different grades of Stainless Steel, and several formats including a Titanium Alloy. The properties of each material will dictate the guide's shape and format, considering it's specific flexibility and the ability to return to in's proper shape when flexed. A case in point is Recoil - they developed a Nickel Titanium material that looks like the old Foulproof guides and they tout it as basically unbreakable, returning to its original shabe regardless of how it is flexed.

The last factor I will mention is your guide train format. While it is not my favorite format, using micro-guides as runners both reduces weight and preserves more of the natural flex in the rod.

With regard to the Microwave Guides, I am a HUGE fan, especially of the recent addition to the line, the MW25's. With MicroWave guides, you can choose several different options including two types of ceramic rings - Nanolite and Duralite. There is even a version with stainless Steel inserts (AirWaves) that are extremely light. There are also several different sizes, both casting and spinning.

Rich

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: November 28, 2022 04:53PM

If you really want to determine how the weight of the guides is affecting the recovery time of the rod then measure the TNF (True Natural Frequency) with different guides and find out whether the weight difference effect on recovery speed is minor or major. Then you can decide whether paying for lighter titanium guides makes sense for you. Your priorities and others' priorities may not be the same.

I don't know what a guide's "format" is relating to frame material. I understand "format" when it relates to guide train design and guide spacing.

I submit that micros don't change the natural flex of a rod. The preservation of the "natural flex" depends on guide spacing and the number of guides. What micros do is contain the looping of the line more than bigger guides do, and they are because of their size, lighter, thus retaining more of the recovery speed of the blank as it's built into a rod.

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: Patrick Noll (---)
Date: November 28, 2022 05:33PM

I've used CRB Elites, Fuji Alconite and CRB LZR's. I think Fuji is better quality but they all work well and the differences are minor. I just wouldn't go with "standard" grade guides. Mudhole stands behind their products (CRB) and have been great about replacing items if not perfect. I fished TI SIC guides and didn't notice anything. To me the midgrade guides are good enough and gives you more to spend on the blank and other components.

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: November 28, 2022 06:25PM

Good that a company stands behind their products when there are problems. I've never had a problem with most companies, including Anglers Resource/Fuji, Batson/Rainshadow, Point Blank, Alps. REC,Snake.

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: El Bolinger (50.233.0.---)
Date: November 29, 2022 08:37AM

Thanks for all the input!

I ordered some AT Airwave sets, but then ordered some AT TIforged runners to add if needed for a couple of longer rods I'm building. I'll measure the weight difference of the runners - but they seemed like they might be lighter and I wasn't sure if the SS insert on the airwaves or the nanolite would be "better."

I wish there was a physical store I could go to and check all this stuff out in MA, but I don't think that there is - or maybe I'm confusing google with my keyword search haha.

I also accidentally ordered tiptops that say they are spinning tiptops for my casting builds- does that really make a difference?

I was ordering all these things into the wee hours of the morning to catch the sale and started getting a little loopy and since I'm new and have no idea what I'm looking at or ordering it was a perfect storm for ordering the wrong things or forgetting/not knowing what to order.

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: Ray Morrison (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: November 29, 2022 11:23PM

El, you had several questions

Weight
Based on "engineering judgment" I doubt that any coating or platings used by the major manufacturers adds any measurable weight to the guide. Maybe the only potential could be painted no name guides on @#$%& or Amazon. But i would stick with the name brand guides.
If you check the manufacturers brochures, some of them list weights. I think it's Seaguide that sometimes even lists the weight of the stainless steel vs Titanium guides in their catalog. Some of the companies like Mudhole list the guide information which includes weight. Another possible source is doing an internet search.

Strength
I think you will only find out the true strength by doing a static test. The strength of guides is not only due to the material but the design. So a guide with a "weaker" material could be stronger than a guide with a "stronger' material. Design of anything is a compromise between cost, strength, weight and other variables (such as corrosion resistance for guides).
In a Fuji KR concept document the strength of titanium was provided as:
High Tensile Titanium Pure Titanium High Tensile Stainless Steel Stainless Steel
Vickers Hardness Hv (Gpa) 4.04 0.98 3.43 1.81
Specific Gravity 5.03 4.51 7.93 7.93
Tensile Strength (Mpa) 1,474.9 343 862.4 519.4
Yield Strength (Mpa) 1,450.4 215.6 597.8 205.8
Resistance to Corrosion 5 stars 5 stars 3 stars 2 stars
Regarding Fuji titantium frame guide, the best frame is selected from high tensile or conventional products as per suitable model and size.

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: Ray Morrison (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: November 29, 2022 11:41PM

El, you had several questions

Weight
Based on "engineering judgment" I doubt that any coating or plating used by the major manufacturers adds any measurable weight to the guide. Maybe the only potential for any minor weight due to paint could be painted no name guides on @#$%& or Amazon. But i would stick with the name brand guides.
If you check the manufacturers brochures, some of them list weights. I think it's Seaguide that sometimes even lists the weight of the stainless steel vs Titanium guides in their catalog. Some of the companies like Mudhole list the guide information which also includes weight. Another possible source of wieghts is doing an internet search.

Strength
I think you will only find out the true strength by doing a static test. The strength of guides is not only due to the material but the design. So a guide with a "weaker" material could be stronger than a guide with a "stronger' material based on the design. Design of anything is a compromise between cost, strength, weight and other variables (such as corrosion resistance for guides).

In a Fuji KR concept document the strength of titanium was provided as:
Tensile Strength (Mpa) High Tensile Titanium 1,474.9, Pure Titanium 343, High Tensile Stainless Steel 862.4, Stainless Steel 519.4

But they also have the note below, so even if you know the material you may not know the exact material they used.
"Regarding Fuji titanium frame guide, the best frame is selected from high tensile or conventional products as per suitable model and size."

As far as seeing what the different components look like in person, I've lucked out a few times by seeing what companies list what they are using and then looking at those rods in the store. If you have a store that carries the full line of St. Croix you will be able to see a good variety of components and brands. Another possibility is your local tackle shops. Some of them have some components they have for repairs.

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: Robert A. Guist (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: November 30, 2022 11:09AM

Hello All.

Here are 2 articles on guides.

Vol/Issue----------Name--------------------------------Author------------------------Page.
8/3 Guide Weight And Rod Performance. By Emory Harry. 22
14/6 Guide Evolution Design and Properties Past & Present. By C. Boyd Pfeiffer. 30


Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: El Bolinger (50.233.0.---)
Date: November 30, 2022 11:11AM

Thanks yall

I see a number of Rod maker magazine articles get referenced, but I can't seem to actually find the articles when I look - how do I get to these articles?

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: John Nesse (---)
Date: November 30, 2022 01:55PM

I build freshwater spinning rods almost exclusively and weight is the critical factor for me. It does make a big difference in the balance of the rod: heavy guides will make a panfish/walleye/bass spinning rod more tip heavy. New concept or "high frame" guides help with this a lot simply because they are smaller and therefore lighter. Still, the titanium torzite guides are much lighter than the regular alconite versions for fuji and the difference is immediately noticeable when you pick up the rod even if it's not as significant as it was with traditional guides. This is especially the case when you use a lightweight handle, and I'm mostly building with carbon handles at this point.

Because I'm trying to build lightweight spinning rods to begin with, the new concept guide system is a no brainer. Among the options I've tried, I have not experienced any durability concerns or meaningful variation in performance. The only noticable difference (other than appearance) is weight, so that's what I consider.

All that said, I've only used Fuji and CRB guides. I've never had a serious problem with fuji or CRB guides of any variety and they get fished hard. I've had a few (very few) rings crack or fall out, but that's rare and they probably got stepped on. I've never had one groove in spite of the fact that I fish a lot of braid and even have spinning rods dedicated to casting crankbaits. So I buy guides from reputable brands and don't worry about durability. Performance is not meaningfully different in terms of casting distance or accuracy among the different guides I've used -- what makes the difference is the guide design (new concept/high frame) and layout.

CRB briefly had some new concept style guides available that I believe allegedly infringed on Fuji's intellectual property (guessing it was the angled ring). They were called "LZR Angled" guides and they were darn nice, and very light. If I could buy those again I would because they were very affordable but still had all the design features you'd want for a new concept layout. I have three rods with them and they've been great all season. I should probably try the American Tackle high frame guides but I haven't been motivated to switch from Fuji recently.

I do wish the weight of each guide was posted on the sites that sell them! If American Tackle's guides are lighter than Fuji's at the same price, or cheaper and the same weight, I'd try them next.

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: Robert A. Guist (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: November 30, 2022 06:19PM

Hi El.

Click on RodMaker Magazine from the list on the left.


Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

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Re: What makes a better guide? coating, weight, type
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: November 30, 2022 09:41PM

I'll use any guides, as long as they are as good as Fuji's. When in doubt...

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