This discussion is interesting by the demonstration of professional response, this topic as so aptly pointed out, has a solution response likely found in other threads, my advice and practice is to always assume that any challenge in any endeavor has already been solved by someone far smarter or intelligent then I think of myself, and the first effort is to find that smarter’s persons answer, first searching myself and then asking for direction or input guidance. The second assumption is any one can know a lot but none of know everything so non judgemental feedback sharing your knowledge indicates a tremendous amount about character, and can lead to mentoring and friendships as well as shared experiences. Simple thing to filling a syringe without air using self sealing bottle inserts, warming the epoxy, inserting a syringe, inverting the bottle and allowing bottle bubbles rise to top of inverted bottle, drawing bubble free resin or hardener into the syringe……and a lot was learned and shared…..Good Luck…Wrap On….Tight Lines

Yes, a lot of solutions can be based on worldly practical experiences like what to do when mixing two part finishes. i learned back in the early 1950's from my Mom when she was making something that had an oil and a sticky substance like Honey. If you measure the oil first, then the honey the honey would separate from the measuring cup easier. So because of that I put the thinner Hardener in the mixing cup first then the resin in second. Gives you a better mix because the Hardener separates from the mixing container easier. It is now just a habit.

Finally I've had the opportunity to put this technique to work. To establish the weights, I measured several batches of 3cc resin/catalyst portions by syringe and recorded the weight in grams. The mixing pot weight was zeroed out before weighing the epoxy. For several more batches, I placed the mixing pot on the scale and zeroed the tare, then added each component to the needed weight was achieved. The batches mixed, applied and cured as well as the syringe measured batches.

My observations are:
- The last bits need to be added a drop at a time to be accurate. In that aspect the syringes have more flexibility because you can squirt excess back into the bottle if you overshoot the mark.
- For me, the weight method reduced the air the syringes seemed to suck in and my hands don't hold the bottle and manipulate the plungers easily.

Until something changes, this will be my method.

Thanks for the discussion and comment. Bruce.

Bruce Tarbet Wrote:
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> - For me, the weight method reduced the air the
> syringes seemed to suck in and my hands don't hold
> the bottle and manipulate the plungers easily.

Bruce...If you use the Self-sealing Bottle Cap Syringe Inserts you will solve a bunch of problems.
Put the inserts in the bottle...stick in the syringe...turn the bottle upside down...give a few taps to release and air....then measure.

[mudhole.com]

The only thing that I would add to Lynn’s technique description is that inserts and syringes are a very affordable way to have zero failures and virtually no cleanup. I have blue and red syringes. I make a blue mark on one bottle and a red on the other so they always get used in the same bottle. Simplicity is a good thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2023 03:56AM by Kendall Cikanek.

Lynn Wrote: (Tom: why is (Lynn's last name) a banned word?)
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> You better do the 3 cc thing.

The 3 cc measuring was pretty standard for me for many years.
Most of those years were pouring into a measuring cups or (at times) a shot glass and comparing the remaining levels of the resin and hardener.

I couldnt agree more with Toms analogy "Being off 1 drop on a 1cc total mix is huge. Being off by 1 drop on a 6cc total mix is within the manufacturer's margin of error and will still provide good results."

But...After I started using the syringes and the self sealing bottle caps I began to think I may just be wasting a lot of material.
Syringes are such and exact way to measure.

I started measuring just 2cc of each mix with no failures.
Then later I went to 1cc of each...no failures.
Today I can honestly say that when I am putting on a second coat of epoxy...I can measure 0.5cc of each successfully.
If I'm covering a rod with a cross wrap with a first coat I will use 1.5cc each mix...it depends.

FWIW....I also have a mixer I made that mixes for 4 minutes and changes direction every 30 seconds.
Its a ball in cup mixer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/01/2023 10:43AM by Chris Catignani.

The truth of the issue is that syringes are the easiest method but cause waste. You have to measure at least 1,5 cc's of each type of the mixture (some would argue 2 or 3ccs) without major bubble issues to ensure an accurate enough mix, and you wind up with waste inside and outside of the syringe, and too much final epoxy product for a single coat.

For the fly rods I make I have lately been using Gen 4. I would say that 3 cc's of mixed product (1.5 cc's of each) is at least 50% more than I need for a 9 foot fly rod, so half the batch gets tossed. I immediately clean the syringes while I let the mixed epoxy settle for a few minutes. I clean them with a cleaner or rubbing alcohol, and also with a little soap and water, then air dry them, and that way I can use a syringe 2-4 times.

But I figure that the epoxy game is probably a profitable one, as less than half of my final mixed product is ever used. I don't make a lot of rods, so also after a year or two I toss out my epoxy as it is yellowing. So probably between waste and yellowing, at most 40-50% of the epoxy I buy never makes it onto a rod. I am glad it is not expensive, as I hate that much waste in a product I buy.

I am tempted to use U-40 Permagloss as you can avoid the mixing issue altogether, but I know it stinks like @#$%& and requires ventilation. When I factor in waste of normal epoxy, the Permagloss price, while high per ounce, is not that high due to minimal waste.

How many Permagloss fan boys are there on the Forum?

I have also seen on YouTube some people using Clear Gorilla Glue: [www.stripersonline.com]

david taylor Wrote:
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> The truth of the issue is that syringes are the
> easiest method but cause waste.

David...we are'nt sticking the syringes in the bottle any more...there is no waste.

I use PermaGloss about 90% of the time now but still use epoxy on occasion. I don't have any epoxy waste and never clean the syringes. If you mark them for resin and hardener you never have to clean them. I never mix less than 3ccs of each part and have never had a batch fail to set properly. Whatever bit I do not use is small potatoes against knowing your finish job is going to set and cure just fine.

About the only time I get an air bubble in a syringe is when I break out a brand new syringe. When I do that I just squirt the stuff back in the bottle and redraw a new syringe full. When you squirt it back out that little bit of product stays in the tip, and when you redraw there is no air to be trapped in the tip, so no bubble.

And even if I'd had a small bubble in a syringe or both syringes, I've never had it affect my mixture. I don't think the stuff is that temperamental. At least not with the LS Supreme or the Flex Coat that I have used.

I always figure that a person can’t get closer to the volume of a small bubble when lining up the plungers to the graduated marks. The plunger is the full inside diameter of the syringe so being off a hundredth of an inch has to cause this level or more of variance in volume. I can’t remember ever having a finish related failure, so extreme levels of precision don’t seem that important. Decades ago I used those individual packs of Flex Coat sold by Cabelas a few times. I once had a slow kick. It could have been that it was hard to not leave varying amounts in the packaging. However, that rod still has great looking finish with no sign of eminent failure. It’s been backpacked and mule packed many times in Montana and portaged all over the Boundary Waters Canoe Area to boot. Just be careful and get as close as you can in volume without stressing about the minutiae. I doubt the syringes release from the molds with some minor volume variance anyway.

Re: Measure Thread Finish Epoxy by Weight?
Posted by: Chris Catignani (---)
Date: November 01, 2023 06:03PM

david taylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The truth of the issue is that syringes are the
> easiest method but cause waste.

David...we are'nt sticking the syringes in the bottle any more...there is no waste.


My 1.5 to 2.0 cc mix of from each bottle makes a good mix, and I have no issues with the result of the epoxy or its finish. I have yet to have a bad mix or batch. But I don't trust mixing less than 1 cc of each bottle. If you are not using syringes, what is your method? I'm am talking about building one fly rod at a time and on average a 9 foot 4-8 weight rod. I don't need 3ccs of final mixed product to cover the threads on such rods.

I'm not concerned about the cost of the wasted epoxy, I can afford that, I just have an aversion to waste.

david taylor Wrote:
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> If you are not using syringes, what is your method?

Hmm....maybe were talking about the same thing?

I use the syringes...I also use the bottle caps made for the syringes.
I should have asked you "HOW" you were wasting your mix.
Is is left over mix that unused or (as I thought) are you sticking the syringes into the mix and wipeing off the excess.

When using the syringes with the self sealing bottle caps you can accurately measure very small amounts of epoxy and not have a problem. I very rarely mix more than 1.5 ml of each epoxy component, and that’s only when I’m doing multiple rods. One ml each is more than enougth to finish a normal freshwater rod, and mix .5 ml each when finishing a guide or two.
Norm

in the beginning i was consistently seeing bubbles while drawing epoxy into the syringes. some methods and what i witnessed.

if you store your bottles right side up with the inserts, air will be trapped or slow replaced with epoxy when you invert the bottle, thus when you draw depending on the speed of the draw air will be pulled into the syringe.

for over a year i was storing my bottles upside down with the inserts and caps. this kept any issues of air being drawn into the syringes. since i have reverted to storing my bottles right side up and upon needing epoxy, ill invert and wait to see large air bubbles move the other end of the bottle. in addition draw slowly and as stated if there are bubbles inject back into the bottle and repeat.

hope you find a system that works for you.

Bruce,
Your issue about air bubbles in syringes is really a non issue.

Simply put, If your supply bottle is upright, and you wish to use a syringe, work the syringe up and down a couple of times to be sure that it is not binding up and is clear.
Then, with the syringe fully closed insert the tip of the syringe or an extension that you may place on the end of the syringe, and suck the part A or part B into the syringe.

Then, holding the handle end of the syringe down with the syringe vertically, push in the handle of the syringe until you are getting only material from the syringe and release the material into your mixing container by pushing the handle all of the way in.

Repeat for the 2nd syringe.

Now, using a craft stick or similar tool slowly mix for two minutes and observe the mixture to be sure that every part of the material is well mixed. As you do this, frequently wipe any material off the face and other parts of the mixing stick on the side of the mixing container, to be sure that every single part of the mixture is well mixed. If you are using a mixing cup, also frequently wipe the sides of the mixing cup to insure that there is no unmixed material on either the mixing stick or on the sides of the mixing cup.

You should be good to go with no bubble issues.

Best wishes

Note:

I always store my epoxy bottles in their normal upright stowed position - to paraphrase the directions from the air crew - before landing the plane.

Then, in order to be able to reach the bottom of the bottle, I simply place an extension on the end of each syringe that will reach to the bottom of the container. I use appropriate sizes and lengths of old rod blank stock for an extension on the bottle.

Then, you are never tipping the bottle. You are never waiting for the finish to flow from the bottom to the top of the bottle if the container is anything less than full.

Normally you never have to clean either the syringes or extensions, because as long as the material in the syringes is not mixed with its other part the material will not harden.


Best wishes

BY THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Updated 12:02 PM CDT, November 2, 2023

Today Roger Wilson was inducted as the sixth member of The Leaders of the New School.
Dinco D was reported to say,"Ehhh". Busta Rhymes commented,"Dude can wrap".
Cut Monitor Milo, master of the spinning lever arm welcomed the addition.

I have been using the same set of syringes for years. Drilled a close fit hole into the bottle cap for the small tip and epoxy in place. Just change caps to new full one when old is empty. Don't have epoxy on barrel from sticking into bottle. When I invert the bottle, the epoxy flows to syringe end without bubbles and you don't have bubbles drawn into syringe. If you do see small bubbles, most likely it is from a Phenomenon called cavitation and when vacuum in syringe reduces back to zero the bubbles collapses. or you invert syringe/bottle and let them float to tip and you push out as you line up plunger to barrel mark. best syringe to use is the one that has a one piece nylon plunger with no rubber gasket. Before I draw any epoxy into syringe, I loosen the cap on bottle, draw the plunger out to its max then tighten cap on bottle then push the plunger all the way in to pressurize the bottle then invert bottle to draw out the amount you need. Just like the nurses to when they give you your shots. I then, as I have said before, put the thinner hardener into the mixing cup first then follow with thicker resin. My spatula that I mix with is one I got from Ralph O"Quin and has a flat tip to allow me to scrap epoxy off cup bottom and scrape sides which also is easier because of first being coated with the thinner hardener. I use a stainless restaurant condiment serving container that can be purchased. Wipes out clean with paper towel. Use the same couple of them for over 30 years.