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Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: November 12, 2022 10:15PM

As the title implies, there is a method to tie-off a thread wrap without the necessity of a pull-through loop. If you are doubtful, so was I until actually seeing the video of it! I saw a short video of a rod builder demonstrating to a dozen onlookers how to tie-off a wrap WITHOUT a pull-through loop!!! Everyone in attendance gasped with amazement. I watched that video upteen gillion times but couldn’t figure it out let alone duplicate it. I have been unsuccessful trying to relocate that video to share with the rest of you. Hopefully, someone else here is familiar with or knows how to locate it and will provide a link for all of us to enjoy and learn. While I don’t think the video was that old, maybe the respected all-seeing / all-knowing veterans such as Tom (certainly others) can assist. Even though I could not duplicate it, it was extremely intriguing and I am certain that all of you would be amazed as well. One way or the other IT CAN BE DONE!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---)
Date: November 12, 2022 11:12PM

I remember such a video about 5 years ago. I watched it a number of times and could never duplicate it.

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: November 12, 2022 11:56PM

Thanks Phil. At least I don’t feel alone. I certainly hope someone links the video for all to enjoy and learn.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: November 13, 2022 07:59AM

There was a fly tying trick that may be what you're looking for. As you near the end of the wrap you put the tip of a bottle of super glue against the thread which will constitute the last 3 or 4 wraps, and run the nozzle up and down that area to apply a bit of the glue to the thread. The instant you make the last 3 or 4 revolutions of thread the wrap is secure. Cut and you're done.

I never liked this style tie-off for various reasons but I know others found it quick and easy.

............

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Bruce Tomaselli (73.154.156.---)
Date: November 13, 2022 09:54AM

I suppose the superglue doesn't show through the finish? I once used color preserver to tack down the last two wraps, and it showed a mark through the finish on each and every guide. One, hard learning experience.

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Herb Ladenheim (185.203.218.---)
Date: November 13, 2022 10:44AM

I'd glue my fingers to the blank.
Herb

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Tim Scott (---)
Date: November 13, 2022 10:57AM

There was a video from a manufacturer where they flame the thread and quickly press the melted end to adhere it. I’m not near fast enough. No idea whereI saw it.

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: November 13, 2022 03:11PM

Thanks Tom, Bruce, Herb and Tim.
The tie-off method that I, and apparently Phil, saw involved NO glue or heat = the same as with utilizing a pull-through loop. As Phil, I saw the video about 5 years ago. Unfortunately, I could not duplicate it so it would be impossible for me to explain, but it involved something like doubling the tag back over itself, possibly reversing the rotation direction (?), and then pull the tag tight and snip it off, all in a matter of 5 - 10 seconds. The builder was obviously enjoying the bewilderment of the onlookers and possibly disguised the most important part to actually make it work; kind of like the ladies sharing a recipe but leaving one ingredient out lol. While I’m quite certain there was no hocus-pocus involved, maybe it WAS magic!?!?!
Guaranteed, all of you will be impressed, amazed and blown-away if you see the method!!! I sincerely hope someone with better computer search skills than me can locate that video.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Chris Catignani (---)
Date: November 13, 2022 04:26PM

This is something like Tim Scott was refering to.
They are actually wrapping down the foot.
[youtube.com]

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: November 13, 2022 05:57PM

Thanks Chris. Very interesting, even if unconventional, method to wrap a guide. What I like is that the initial tag is secured by the first 3 or 4 wraps and the loose end is hidden along the guide foot tunnel. Also, those first few wraps serve as a pseudo Forhan locking wrap. How the builder was able to wrap so easily DOWN the ramp of the foot is beyond me; every time I attempt, the thread slides down the ramp ahead of itself leaving gaps whereas when climbing UP the ramp, the thread automatically packs itself to the previous rotation. What I don’t like, or at least question, is the melting of the thread end from a security and aesthetics point of view. Granted, after the thread finish has cured, the method of “tie-off” is a moot point. But we all have had wraps go BOINK, sometimes for no apparent reason. I am uncertain that the mushroomed melted head of the thread would be an improvement over the bulge created by the pulled through tag.
Nonetheless, the method(s) apparently work and may be worthy of further investigation.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: November 13, 2022 06:50PM

Mark, come to think of it, I've seen this video myself and have no idea where. It looked to have been recorded at a show somewhere.

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Herb Ladenheim (94.140.11.---)
Date: November 13, 2022 07:03PM

As I remember - he did it without benefit of conventioal tying table - wrapped with spool in his hand.
Herb

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: November 13, 2022 08:39PM

Lynn,
I think you are correct; the demonstration was at some sort of rod building “gathering”, outdoors if I remember correctly.
Herb,
I think you are also correct ; no fancy equipment during the demonstration.
Did this video vaporize into cyberspace somewhere? The more difficult it is to locate that video = the more I want it!!! Lol
So 2 more respected rod builders who have seen the elusive “No Pull-Through Loop” video. It really deserves to be relocated for all to enjoy, drop-a-jaw, scratch our heads and learn.
THANKS TO ALL WHO HAVE CONTRIBUTED THUS FAR. TRUST ME, THIS IS A WORTHY CAUSE!!! PLEASE, SOMEONE, FIND THAT VIDEO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It means so much to me to be able to share it with the rest of you, that I will give $50.00 to the first person who locates it and provides a link for all to view.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Greg Wilkins (72.49.52.---)
Date: November 14, 2022 01:02AM

I am new to rod building, and have not seen this done on fishing rods. However, it sounds like you are describing a Back Serving knot used in archery to finish the serving on a bowstring. I’m not sure how to attach a link here, but search for videos on this knot. It may be what you are looking for. I wish I had thought of the pull loop in my archery phase.

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---)
Date: November 14, 2022 12:20PM

NO, back serving is not the answer as it leaves the same double layer Mark is trying to avoid.

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: November 14, 2022 03:03PM

The guy in the video must have some serious skin on his thumb. I would have a giant blister and a piece of that burnt melted nylon line stuck in the head of the blister. I have done the glue wrap as Tom stated only because I got lazy and wanted to see if it actually would work (many years ago before this site). There may be some merit in it for some situations. I have also tried wrapping down the guide like that and half the time the step down off the guide leaves a gap. Easier to go up the guide and not have a gap.

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.adr01.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: November 14, 2022 03:23PM

The glue wrap works well when you need to add a single thread metallic trim to the end of a wrap, but you must understand that if the super glue gets onto the main wrap and it;s not treated with CP, or it's not NCP thread, it will cause the main wrap to change color just like epoxy will. Cross the thread over itself, let it cure, the carefully cut to get the single thread. The joint goes on the under side. I know there is a better way to do the single thread if you plan ahead and pull the end under the main wrap thread.

I cannot imagine regularly using super glue on all my wraps. It could be called a solution worse than the problem.

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: November 14, 2022 03:44PM

Greg,
Thanks! The “back serving knot” that you mentioned MAY just be the method used in the video I am referring to. [www.youtube.com] It also involves ”doubling the tag back over itself” and “possibly reversing the rotation direction (?)” that I mentioned my fossilized brain vaguely remembering; and all without a pull-through loop.
Phil,
While the back serving knot that Greg mentioned does include a “double layer” as you stated, I can’t imagine how to lock the tag without doing so, at least without glue or heat. It was a previous topic that I started “Eliminating the Bulge Created by a Pulled-Through Tag” which dealt with minimizing the bulge. An offshoot from that discussion prompted this topic of loopless tie-offs.
In the end when all is said and done, Greg’s offering of the “back serving knot” may be a viable alternative to the employment of a pull-through loop. Although it may have been intended for archery applications, it very well could also be applied to tying-off a thread wrap. The only thing I don’t like about it is that the tag end comes out 3 or 4 (or as many as desired) rotations in from the edge of the wrap, which needs to be trimmed-off. To eliminate any possible thread nubs when tying-off a wrap, I prefer to insert my pull-through loop quite early so that the pre-cut tag is buried under the main wrap. Those of you who prefer to pull their tag all the way though the main wrap before trimming it will feel right-at-home and be second-nature.
I am very curious to learn what the rest of you think of employing this LOOPLESS TIE-OFF method!!! Excuse me, but I need to go out to experiment and practice.

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Scott Appley (---.ccgov.net)
Date: November 14, 2022 04:35PM

This the video that helped me the most and I try to duplicate. Nothing now just a refinement. [www.youtube.com]

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Re: Ending / Tying-off a Wrap Without a Pull-through Loop
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: November 14, 2022 08:41PM

OK all, I tried the tie-off method that Scott supplied, the “back serving knot” (BSK). Although intended for archery applications, I used it to tie-off a half dozen practice thread wraps. IT WORKS! I am just happy to have learned something new and actually be able to perform it myself. After doing it a few times, I am 98% certain that the BSK method is the same as applied in the video I was looking for. Nonetheless, I would like to see that video to verify; the demonstrator seemed to make it look so quick and effortless.
Which brings up my initial observations. BSK was a bit cumbersome to perform, at least with size D thread. Admittedly though, I have only performed BSK 6 times compared to 6000 with a pull-through loop. I suspect BSK may be similar to so many aspects in life = practice makes perfect. To be honest, BSK may end up proving to require more time than a pull-through loop; too early to tell. While there are certainly pros and cons of BSK compared to a pull-through loop, the next time I forget to insert a pull-through loop, at the very least, I won’t have to back-up 10 rotations! Don’t allow “ignorance is bliss” to prevail; give BSK an opportunity to learn; I doubt any of us have learning memory banks which are at full capacity.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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