Yet another basic question from your resident tyro . Hope y'all will bear with me . I was pondering whether to use single foot / ceramic guides or more traditional Snake brand guides on my first fly rod build . I've spent a bunch of time reading opinions on this in the archives here and the topics seem to boil down to increased weight and/or decreased sensitivity and function . ( I sort of discounted the comments about which passes the line/leader connection better cause in my case that will happen only twice a day. ) Then I wondered if fly line itself would reduce "sensitivity" due to it's diameter and composition making any difference between the two guide types insignificant ?? I may be totally missing the point - the function ( casting/playing the fish ) may be where the difference plays a role . Even then , wouldn't the extra weight of the line play more of a role than the difference between the guide types ?? I know it may be an off the wall question but , if I could understand this better , it might help me make better choices .
Thanks .
Ron

Generally, the higher the stiffness to weight ratio of the rod the greater the sensitivity will be. Ceramics can sometimes be heavier than snakes, depending on size and type, therefore they would reduce sensitivity to a greater extent than snakes would. However the difference would be absolutely tiny.

Rod sensitivity itself wouldn't be affected by the line, but sensitivity itself is affect by line stretch. Fly lines don't stretch by much and if you keep a taut line so much the better. Sort of like guys mentioning how much more they can feel with low or no-stretch braid vs mono. The rod itself didn't become more sensitive, but anything on the other end is better felt with less stretch in the line.

There is an article in the current issue of RodMaker that takes issue with how we define sensitivity - you don't really feel vibrations - you feel resistance (which you may mistake for vibration).

...............

Less double foot snake guides like 10 and a tip top on a 9' rod will have the least amount of tip weight making it a better casting rod. You need more single foot guides to get good casting characteristic similar to the double foot snakes. I have extensively experimented with these set ups and that is the conclusion I have come up with. If you use the same amount and placement of single foot guides as you would traditionally use double foot snake guides you will loose distance (if that matters to you) and accuracy. On lower weight rods like 5 and below the tip weight really won't affect feeling the tip weight as much when using more single foot guides. When you get into 7wt and above it becomes more noticeable. I am going to try different blank lengths with single foot ceramic ringed guides to see if that helps with the tip end problem with the higher weight rods. If you do use single foot guides, I would use ceramic rings in the lightest frame and ring you can find.Single foot snake guides are trash and give no benefit to the whole reason for using single foot guides.

There is no such thing as a single foot snake guide. All snake guides have two feet, which is why they resemble and are called snake guides ---- the shape. There are single foot wire guides and I don't care for them either.

There is a difference in rod sensitivity and plain old sensitivity. Using one line or the other does not change the rod's sensitivity but can change overall sensitivity.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> Generally, the higher the stiffness to weight
> ratio of the rod the greater the sensitivity will
> be. Ceramics can sometimes be heavier than snakes,
> depending on size and type, therefore they would
> reduce sensitivity to a greater extent than snakes
> would. However the difference would be absolutely
> tiny.
>
> Rod sensitivity itself wouldn't be affected by the
> line, but sensitivity itself is affect by line
> stretch. Fly lines don't stretch by much and if
> you keep a taut line so much the better. Sort of
> like guys mentioning how much more they can feel
> with low or no-stretch braid vs mono. The rod
> itself didn't become more sensitive, but anything
> on the other end is better felt with less stretch
> in the line.
>
> There is an article in the current issue of
> RodMaker that takes issue with how we define
> sensitivity - you don't really feel vibrations -
> you feel resistance (which you may mistake for
> vibration).
>
I didn't express myself very well . I understand that the characteristics of the rod wouldn't be changed . Fascinating concept regarding resistance versus vibration , I have subscribed to RodMaker and hopefully will receive this current issue .
Thank you .
Ron

Lance Schreckenbach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Less double foot snake guides like 10 and a tip
> top on a 9' rod will have the least amount of tip
> weight making it a better casting rod. You need
> more single foot guides to get good casting
> characteristic similar to the double foot snakes.
> I have extensively experimented with these set
> ups and that is the conclusion I have come up
> with. If you use the same amount and placement of
> single foot guides as you would traditionally use
> double foot snake guides you will loose distance
> (if that matters to you) and accuracy. On lower
> weight rods like 5 and below the tip weight really
> won't affect feeling the tip weight as much when
> using more single foot guides. When you get into
> 7wt and above it becomes more noticeable. I am
> going to try different blank lengths with single
> foot ceramic ringed guides to see if that helps
> with the tip end problem with the higher weight
> rods. If you do use single foot guides, I would
> use ceramic rings in the lightest frame
> you can find.Single foot snake guides are trash
> and give no benefit to the whole reason for using
> single foot guides.

Thank you . I am leaning toward Snake brand guides for runners and a couple of Fuji LN for strippers and maybe an Fuji F tip ?? I was mainly wondering if the line itself make the difference between snakes and single foot ceramics insignificant and it seems your experience indicates there is still a significant difference.
Very interesting . Thanks again .
Ron

Mike Ballard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> There is a difference in rod sensitivity and plain
> old sensitivity. Using one line or the other does
> not change the rod's sensitivity but can change
> overall sensitivity.

Thank you . As I replied to Mr. Kirkman , I put my foot in it and didn't express myself well . I understand basic rod characteristics remain unchanged . Just wondered if the perceived overall aspects would be changed enough to negate the differences between the guide types . Thanks again .
Ron

Doubtful. And you know when fly fishing the biggest "sensitivity" issue is watching the line. You see it twitch and you've been bit.

..........

"wondering if the line itself make the difference between snakes and single foot ceramics insignificant " Answer: Forget the line.

To use single foot or double foot ceramic ring guides all the way to the tip is simply not the way to go for fly. Use a couple double foot ceramic ring guides for the first two, (I use 16 and 8) then wire guides all the way to the tip. Either snakes or single foot wire guides, doubtful anyone can tell the difference in anything between them. Since all fly lines are about the same, line is not a significant issue. Do some research on this site for size recommendations. This is not rocket science, although I suspect many on this site think it is.

I would not use snake or wire guides on any fly rod. Casting and spin fishermen stopped using them 50 years ago and fly rod makers should too. They are dinosaurs in a modern age. I build fly rods for hard fighting saltwater fish. There is no comparison between snakes/wire and ceramics. The ceramics pay out line way more smoothly and never groove. They are the only way to go. Even on lighter fly rods if you are careful with the brand and type ceramics you use the weight difference that everybody talks about is a non-issue. And single foot ceramics only require one wrap of thread and finish. If you want to weigh them keep that part of the weight equation in mind to.

Oh Dear .... Thanks to Mr. Danek and Mr. Ballard for responding . I imagine my original question may have been a cowardly attempt to avoid making the decision on which type guides to use . This being only my third build and my first ever fly rod build , I was unsure after reading so many completely divergent opinions . If an outside factor reduced the significance of the difference between guide types , my choice would have been somewhat easier . I guess there are no substitutes for experience and the only way to get that is to jump in feet first .
Thanks again .
Ron

As you go along in your rod building journey, build a couple fly rods and use one guide type on one and another on the other. Decide for yourself. As a custom builder it wouldn't be hard to strip and replace the guides on whichever one you decide you don't like, or don't like as much.

The thing about custom rod building is that there always an easy reason to build one more rod.

..........

Right on, Tom. One can never have too many rods. Like women's purses and shoes. One for every occasion.

Michael Danek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Right on, Tom. One can never have too many rods.

Goodness ... Mama ain't gonna be no where near happy :)

We have seen many discussions on this site about sensitivity and comparing weights of guides to get the very lightest guide even by a gram or two to get the most sensitive rod. Now we are talking about a fly line with my limited experience is a lot heavier than a very small braid or a couple pound mono and this fly line is running through your guides and laying there as a mass that compromises the light weight of the rod guides when it comes to sensitivity. What am I missing here.

Kerry Hansen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> We have seen many discussions on this site about
> sensitivity and comparing weights of guides to get
> the very lightest guide even by a gram or two to
> get the most sensitive rod. Now we are talking
> about a fly line with my limited experience is a
> lot heavier than a very small braid or a couple
> pound mono and this fly line is running through
> your guides and laying there as a mass that
> compromises the light weight of the rod guides
> when it comes to sensitivity. What am I missing
> here.

Thank you . It sounds like you understand at least what prompted my question . My guess is that the folks who have responded here are saying the different guide set ups affect the function ( line handling , casting distance , accuracy , etc. ) . As Tom said in the first response , the difference in sensitivity would be "tiny". I'm not even sure that I'm correct in assuming that . One thing I am pretty sure about is that there has to be something(s) in play that would cause so many very experienced folks to have so very different opinions about guides . Maybe it's like cornbread ? Some people put sugar in and some don't . Both swear theirs taste better cause it was the way they were raised . Way way beyond my paygrade .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2022 01:09AM by Ronald Atchley.

Ronald, don't lose sight of the fact that your questions and the resulting answers concern how guide weight affects the sensitivity of a fly rod. From what I've read thus far, all the opinions offered seem to fall along the same lines ..... that guide weight, isn't a major factor in fly rod sensitivity.

Now I am not a fly fisherman. My only experiences with a fly rod are making simple little roll casts to bedding bluegill, and mounting a spinning reel on a fly rod to fish for lake run steelhead in Lake Erie tributaries. From my perspective, guide type and spacing on a fly rod are more about the guides allowing a smooth flow of a large diameter (comparatively) line. I would think that smooth flow of line would be far more important than a fly rod's sensitivity. While I have no doubt that rod sensitivity plays a role in some fly fishing, as Tom mentioned earlier, strike detection is more visual, than it is about sensitivity.

I would acquaint fly rod fishing to fishing a top water bait for bass. Rod sensitivity is of little importance when fishing for bass with top water baits.

On the other hand, if you were talking about a type of fishing where a bite is detected by feeling it through the rod, then guide weight plays a much larger role. Discussions about guide weight on those types of rods are where you'll see very different opinions.

For me as one uneducated in fly fishing, it seems that casting performance is what it is all about with fly rods, and not so much about rod sensitivity.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2022 06:27AM by David Baylor.

The original question as I understood was not about guide weight, but whether the fly line affected one's decision on what guides to use. My answer was only in regard to what I interpreted as the question. And the answer is that the line used does not affect the decision on what guides to use.

Guide weights do affect sensitivity; the heavier the guides the lower the stiffness to weight ratio and the lower the sensitivity. Tom covered this in his first response.

I think I saw in the string what is the biggest issue with guide weight but cannot find it now: It is that heavier guides slow the recovery time of the rod, and it can be significant. If there is a significant difference in the weight of different guide selections there will be a significant difference in recovery time. By significant I mean enough to affect the fishing quality of the rod.

As with so many rodmaking decisions this is one where tradeoffs and personal prefernces can get involved. Personally, I value a fast response time of wire guides more than I value any perceived smoothness that comes from heavier ceramic ring guides.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that the best way to feel a bite with a fly rod is to keep the rod low, pointed to the fly, and with no slack in the line. There will be no missing the bite. This works when there is no current and under some current conditions, but is not feasible under all conditions.

I'd like to thank everyone who has taken the time to try and help me understand this better . There is still a world of things I don't understand but your responses have helped a great deal .
Thank you .
Ron

"One thing I am pretty sure about is that there has to be something(s) in play that would cause so many very experienced folks to have so very different opinions about guides ."

I think you have to consider the context. There are lots of different fish, waters, and conditions. For example I'm near Miami. Most of the salt water fish I would be after are among the top ten fastest swimmers. Some of them are in excess of 100 pounds. So I might prioritize slick guides, a great drag, and lots of backing on my reel. I doubt any of those would be a priority for you.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.