Hi All,
just wondering if someone can shed some light on why the epoxy has shown tiny cracks at the start of the guide feet. It hast cracked all the way through, but will it?

I built a 50lb game rod. I put 2 coats of epoxy over the under binds then I double wrapped the roller guides with size D thread then epoxied at least 3 times over the entire rod.

So where did I go wrong, I've never had the epoxy crack on me before. The only thing I can think of is that the ambient temperature was too cold (Melbourne Aus)

Cheers
Russ

Where did you go wrong? It may be the epoxy. Hard epoxy does not bend well. It is like a liquid plastic that hardens and there are different hardnesses to epoxy. For rods I tend to use flexible epoxies, not rigid epoxies. Bend a rigid epoxy and you can get cracks and separation from the bank.

And you are right about low temps also causing epoxies to harden up enough to crack when bent.

The epoxy is not there to hold the guide on. The thread is. The epoxy merely keeps the thread from unwrapping more than anything else and can hold guides in place that the thread can't which is more for load, not lateral forces that the epoxy can handle.

A more flexible epoxy might be needed.

---------------------ADDED

russ lloyd Wrote:
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>
> I built a 50lb game rod. I put 2 coats of epoxy
> over the under binds then I double wrapped the
> roller guides with size D thread then epoxied at
> least 3 times over the entire rod.

After re-reading this it occurred to me there could be an issue with the layering as well. I generally only put one thin coat on guides and as thin as I can keep it. But if I were to put a second coat on, it should be done while the first coat is still tacky so there is a molecular bond between the layers. If you wait until one layer is fully cured & the you add the second coat, let it cure, then add the third coat, then you are stacking unbonded plates of plastic one on top of the other, and when bent they could separate and cause cracking as well. They will not bond well once cured but will bond well while still tacky. Just a thought.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2022 06:48AM by Kent Griffith.

Flex Coat high build is the epoxy I use. And yes, it sounds very plausible about the layering, but I haven't had issues in the past?

Thanks for the prompt reply ????

If you never had this problem before then something changed with your process or you changed epoxy. Review your past activity and look for any changes in your routine.

Good luck

You may have put too much epoxy on wraps. I.e. Too thick.
Herb

This is a common issue with epoxy and when guide feet are not tapered shallow enough. Most offshore rod guides have very thick feet and it can be difficult to really obtain a thin, shallow taper at the foot ends. The good news is that this rarely creates any real durability issues.

........

Hello Russ.

What size rollers did you use?

Are the rollers rated for 50#?

Did you stress the rod?

Sometimes if you have a heaver set of guides than your rod can handle the feet (which flex under heavy loads) wont flex and the epoxy cracks.

I sometimes grind the extra heavy guide feet a little if they look too beefy for the rod, but it's better to get the right rollers for the size rod you are using.

Tight Wraps & Tighter Lines.

Bob,

New Bern, NC.

Sounds like way too much epoxy! Created a thick plastic like lumps that are more prone to cracking.

OK here is what you want to do to stop such cracking. BEFORE you apply epoxy you should put on a coat or two of Permagloss. Let that dry for a few days and then epoxy as normal. Toughest wraps you can make and you will not get any cracking on any rod.

Russ,
From a wear standpoint, there is essentially 0 reason to put thread finish over the entire rod.

May I ask you, why you put three coats of epoxy over the entire rod.

Also, why did you put the multiple layers of epoxy on the guide wraps?

I suspect if you had put 1/2 the amount of epoxy on the rod you would not have any issues.
Also, if you tapered your guide feet to a razor edge, I suspect that you would not have had any issues.

Phil Erickson Wrote:
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> Sounds like way too much epoxy! Created a thick
> plastic like lumps that are more prone to
> cracking.

YES!!
Herb

This is a critical point on large rods where you have the thick rigid metal guide foot next to the flexibility of the rod blank. The epoxy is the man in the middle holding them together. There are many ideas on how to remedy this, so here is another one, end your wrap right at the tip of the guide foot or no more that a 1/16 of an inch over it. This will allow the two opposing forces to have their play with no noticeable cracking. Also, use black thread.

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

It isn't always foot thickness/stiffness. I have a rod that I had a big weave on it that someone wanted to show at some function so I wrapped the guides and shipped it to him. Without the rod being used, the epoxy had cracked. I concluded that the only reason that fit the circumstances was the increased heat I used to speed the cure. My .02

Kerry Hansen Wrote:
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> It isn't always foot thickness/stiffness. I have a
> rod that I had a big weave on it that someone
> wanted to show at some function so I wrapped the
> guides and shipped it to him. Without the rod
> being used, the epoxy had cracked. I concluded
> that the only reason that fit the circumstances
> was the increased heat I used to speed the cure.
> My .02

Could be and likely so. Adding such artificial heat or "flaming" the epoxy can cause changes in the epoxy's characteristics. This is why other than a brief application of gentle heat to release bubbles or moving the rod to a warmer room, no epoxy supplier recommends adding such artificial heat to an epoxy.

.......

Thanks for the reply's peoples. Lots of info here. I did grind the roller guides to a fine point as I normally do. No change in how I apply the epoxy and adding heat to release the bubbles, I use a heat gun from a distance. The only difference may have been the epoxy being old. 16oz probably 2 years old at least and due to the cold weather, I warmed the epoxy in the microwave 5 secs at a time till it was warm, that may have something to do with it.
I put epoxy over the rod to protect the blank from mis treatment, easy to repair epoxy than the blank. Anyway, still learning and trying new ways to improve as we do.
Thanks again for your ideas. ????

Cheers
Russ

Epoxy doesn't really get old in terms of how it sets, cures or performs. The hardener will darken a bit with age but that's about it.

...............

Guides do not flex the same as a blank. Something has to give. It's the epoxy. Anyone who says they build heavy rods like you are and do not experience cracking at all - they are lying.

Thanks Again guys, I'll see how this next one turns out.

Cheers
Russ

I would not worry about it too much. So long as the thread is secured, it will not make a difference other than to your eye. If the look bothers you that much, you can always remove the epoxy, rewrap the guide, and apply new epoxy. Not a fun task, but not that hard, either.

I don’t have a cracking epoxy problem because most of the rods I build do not under go a significant amount of stress due to fighting large and powerful fish. However, I have seen a few heavy duty offshore rods that did show cracking around the guide foot. I assumed at the time it was due to using color preserver. With color preserver the epoxy does not penetrate the wrap threads and thus just sits on top of the wrap. In this instance the epoxy may be more prone to cracking. This may also be true when using NCP thread. However, I have no data to prove this assumption. Just a thought.
Norm