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Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Henry Gehlhaus (---)
Date: August 28, 2022 02:33PM

I’m going to build a jigging world ghost hunter popping rod and I’m looking for guide recommendations. I’ve had a factory popping rod with Fuji mnsg guides and was not a fan of how they controlled the line. I would like to stick with Fuji and use either Kw guides or try the RV-H guides

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: August 28, 2022 03:44PM

Henry,
Can you explain your statement:
I am not a fan of how they controlled the line?

The reason that I ask the question is that for myself, I have never put control in the same sentence when it comes to guides on a rod.

i.e. if the right size and spacing of the guides are placed correctly on the blank - the guides effectively disappear from the use of the rod.

But, I am guessing that you are speaking of something else - hence my question.

I have built a lot of popping rods that we use up in the midwest for light biting walleyes.

Most of the rods have been built using Pac Bay minima guides and every rod for myself as well as my clients have all been very well pleased with the overall performance of these rods built on Rain Shadow blanks.

In particular:

IMMP76ML-TC IMMP76ML-TC
Series : Immortal RX8
Item Length (in) : 7'6"
Rod Blank Color : Titanium Chrome Gloss
Rod Blank Application : Popping corks w/bait
Rod Blank Application : Topwaters
Rod Blank Application : Jigs
Rod Blank Application : Crankbaits
Material : RX8 Graphite
Number of Pieces : 1
Action : Mod-Fast
Power : Medium-Light
Line Rating (lbs.) : 6-12lb.
Lure Weight Rating (oz.) : 1/8-3/8oz.
Weight (oz.) : 2.0oz.
Butt Diameter : 0.46
Tip Top Size : 4.5

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: August 28, 2022 07:00PM

For what lure weights and species is this popping rod going to be used? I assume it’s going to be a spinning rod, so what size reel and line?
Norm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2022 07:10PM by Norman Miller.

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 28, 2022 07:20PM

It is truly amazing how often someone asks for advice without stating whether they are building a casting rod or a spinning rod. Come on , folks, we can really help if we know what you plan on building.

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---)
Date: August 28, 2022 09:05PM

Gents, we are likely talking a spinning rod for tuna casting large "popping" type top water lures. Nothing close to what a regular popping rod is.

Still I would ask what was wrong with MNSG as that is a proven solution.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Henry Gehlhaus (---.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net)
Date: August 29, 2022 09:29AM

It’s going to be a spinning rod matched with a Saragossa 14k with 60lb braided line. It’s used for throwing large 3.5oz poppers to yellowfin and bluefin tuna. The reel was previously on a centaur combat arms 710m that had the Fuji mnsg guides and it casted very poorly. It seemed the line would slap the blank between most of the guides, also watching the line go through the guides it seemed the line would mostly hit the frame of the guides first then pass through the rings. It’s very likely that factory rod did not match well with the Saragossa 14k. I’ve built a good amount of rods using fuji kw guides where you can see how effective the reduction train is in controlling the line down to the running guides. I’ve never built a rod using fuji mnsg guides, so I can’t comment on how well they perform when tailored to a specific fishing reel.

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 29, 2022 12:00PM

Thank you Henry. I have no expertise for what you are building, good luck. Sounds like Russell is a good source of info.

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Mark Brassett (---)
Date: August 29, 2022 01:01PM

I'm building two tuna poppers also that called for mnsg guides. Couldn't find them so I emailed Fuji. They said they will no longer be making them.

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: August 29, 2022 02:26PM

I’m unfamiliar with building tuna popping rod using such a large spinning reel. However, for a KR concept rod you could certainly use the RV25H, RV16H, and KW10M for the reduction train and KW 8s for the running guides. These are all double foot guides and should be plenty strong enough. The larger the reel the further out you push the stripper guide. So you may want to start by positioning the stripper somewhere between 26 to 30” in front of the spool, and play from there. Hopefully someone with experience building tuna popping rods will chime in.
Norm

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 29, 2022 03:35PM

Since casting distance is your primary objective it's a shame that real, measured casting distances of rod builds never appear on this site.

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Mark Brassett (---)
Date: August 29, 2022 04:05PM

I think you're right, Norm. Mine calls for five guides. 40 at 29" then 30, 25, 20, 16 then the tip. Mfg specs.

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---)
Date: August 29, 2022 04:38PM

That particular reel is going to be a problem. Between being big and having no "sweep" to the reel stem I can see why it did poorly. They really need a long surf rod to work out well for casting.

Best I can say. Make your guides big (like 50 for a butt guide), and push them on out from the spool. A 7' rod is going to be hard. I'd go with 8'. Use old school 27X/NGC layout. KW's are a solid guide choice.

You will be happier with a Stella. Let's face it. The type of fishing you are talking about isn't cheap and the fish are worth a lot. If that Stella amounts to even one more fish per trip it will pay for itself very quickly.

I am assuming you are building this for you. If so, I'd add a conventional build as well. I just like them better for the tough fighting fish. I do better stopping a fish from going deep with an educated thumb on the spool. I'll take the spinners for the fast fish that stay on the top (sails/dolphin).

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: August 29, 2022 06:39PM

All I know about the Saragossa 14K reel is that it is.big reel.
Mark - The guide train you give is an old cone of flight (COF) setup. In my opinion the large ringed guides don’t do as good job of choking down the line coils as a KR set would do. I think you would get less line slap with the KR setup, because it would help control the line coils much better, especially when using braid. The RV25H is about 56 mm high, and the MN 40 about 62 mm, so I think the RV25H should work, might need to push it a little further out, depending on the reel used. The small ring high frame design of the reduction train should give you good line control, and choke down the line coils pretty quickly.
Norm

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Mark Brassett (---)
Date: August 29, 2022 07:29PM

Thanks, Norm. I am building one 7'6 and the other 8'0. I will use the 40,30, 25,30,16 on the 7'6 and then the Kr starting with 25 on the 8'. We will see which one is actually the best.

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: August 29, 2022 07:37PM

Experimentation is great! You should learn a lot.
Norm

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: chris c nash (---.atmc.net)
Date: August 29, 2022 08:42PM

RV 25H is the choice as Norm said , even with 65 pound braid . Anything larger would be detrimental and wasted energy . If I understand your initial post this will be used on a boat for jigging so casting distance is obviously not a priority , a 7 foot rod length and 65 pound braid would also indicate that .

I agree with the RV25H , RV16H but you could even choose the KW12M instead of the KW10M for your third reduction guide but it's not critical either way since both will work . Fuji recommends the KW12M after the RV16H but I have always opted for the KW10M on my surf rod builds( I know your build is not a surf rod build ) and that's because my line choice is much lighter than 65 pound braid but with 65 pound braid I might opt for the KW12M instead but as stated previously either will work .

The Saragosa's are exceptional reels whether it's the "A" version or not, all of them are excellent and THE 14000 MODEL will handle the same type of beasts that the much more expensive Stella's will handle at a fraction of the cost.

Wishing you much success .

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: chris c nash (---.atmc.net)
Date: August 30, 2022 03:06AM

After thinking it over more a high framed KW 30 would work very well and it's a lot cheaper than the RV's . The trick to having the ultimate performing spinning guide reduction train is to figure out what size ring will be large enough to allow the line to flow through unobstructed while also not going too large which causes energy loss on the cast . That can be tricky . You don't want the line to have an excessive amount of room inside the ring , you want the line contained quickly and forced into the second reduction guide as effortlessly as possible . Having a very thorough knowledge of your line and it's handling characteristics including what suppleness is required to work well with certain ring sizes is paramount .

You also do not want to use every subsequent guide that manufacturers offer in their guide train offerings .

Instead of 40, 30, 25, 20,16,12,10 etc.... picking and choosing the guide heights and ring sizes individually will result in a much more efficient overall guide train while saving considerable unnecessary weight in the process. The reason for this is because when you go with each subsequent guide in a series there is very little benefit because each subsequent guide is much too close to the former in ring size which offers virtually no benefit at all . Guide manufacturers force builders to choose these guides because nothing else really fit's either height size or ring size wise .

Say you plan on going with 30,25,20,16,12. When you include a 25 ring size in between the 30 and 20 all that 25 size guide offers is unnecessary weight and virtually no noticeable impact on changing the behavior of the line. When the line reaches the first 30 size ring it travels virtually unimpeded through the 25 20 and 16 with the first big change taking place at the 12 ring size . That 25 and 20 size ring offer no real benefit EXCEPT that their heights might match best that's why people use them. If not for their height being the best match those are pretty useless especially the added weight .

Even though the KR concept was initially intended for light line layouts it shows what's possible when you skip certain guide sizes and are able to get the line down to the blank much quicker and more efficiently. Eliminating the guides that offer the least possible benefit is a good way to go about achieving this .

Spinning reel specs determine the perfect height of the guides while line choice determines ring sizes.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/30/2022 03:11AM by chris c nash.

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 30, 2022 06:05PM

Is there any credible source revealing which are the lightest, or most durable, or most corrosion-resistant, or longest casting guides? I am referring to actual tests and results rather than casual, unsubstantiated claims.

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: August 31, 2022 01:14PM

I am theorizing that the longest casting guide should not be part of any guide selection criteria.

The reason why I say this is that no matter the name, brand, or type of guide construction - except for the very first guide on a spinning rod, the line should almost never even touch any of the other guides with any sort of pressure to result in any drag.

Thus, if the line essentially doesn't touch a guide - the guide itself will really have no effect on the casting distance.

Having said that - it is absolutely imperative that the builder is astute enough so the right guide height and size is selected for each guide placed on the rod. But, if that job is well done - the actual guide type and construction tends to fade into the background noise of the build.

Of course, weight, durability, and corrosion resistance are easy to measure variables and absolutely are very guide dependent.

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Re: Guides for popping rods
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: August 31, 2022 01:27PM

Henry,
I read your post about the previous rod performance of guides and the particular reel in question.

The simple solution - taller guides. Especially on the first and possibly the first two guides.

With a large reel as you are using, the first guide needs to be tall enough so that the line is held well off the bland during a cast. But, then, the line needs to be tamed quickly before running down the blank to avoid line slap further down the rod blank.

So, for your particular case, you may not need the size 40 guide, and in fact may detract from the rigs performance, but your certainly need a very tall guide - whether it is a size 40 or something smaller. The same thing with the 2nd guides, again a pretty tall guide, but because it is tall to keep the line off the rod blank you can pretty quickly reduce the ring size to better tame the line for the ensuing guides

So, for a first test rig, I might suggest a size 30 very tall guide for the first guide and a size 20 very tall guide for the 2nd guide, then, you can quickly drop down to a size 16 tall guide and then on down to a size 12 conventional guide or thereabouts.

Also, since you are running heavy line from a tall reel, I would suggest that you place your first guide at about 30 inches from the reel for an initial test. This length will help to calm the line before it encounters the first guide and tend to minimize any line slap against anything.

Setup and test. Change, and test, Change and test. About 4 wraps of 3/8th masking tape holds a guide on nicely for test casting, but is easy to change. Also, standard plastic electrical tape works well for taping guides on a blank for use during a testing phase.

For example. set up your guide train with a 30 inch distance from the reel for the first guide and the rest of the guide train accordingly. Then, do some test casting. Then, move the first guide back to 25 inches, leaving all of the other guides in their same position and test again. Then, move it up to 20 inches and test again - all without moving any of the other guides. Remember, this test is only for casting - initially and is not for the final setup that is needed when fighting a big fish. For this test, you are just trying to nail the height, size and position of the first guide on the rod.

If you do this testing, I would be curious as to its results.

p.s.
To get the height that want for the first stripper guide I routinely use "Match" guides. These are very tall guides that can have very small rings. But, the advantage is that the line is well away from the blank and thus minimize line slap.

Take care



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2022 01:29PM by roger wilson.

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