As I tweaked the alignment of the guides on my last rod before applying CP and epoxy, I questioned the accepted "knowledge" that the strength of wraps, essentially the retention of the guides on the rod, is mostly due to the thread, that the epoxy only protects the thread. If this were true then I could still tweak the alignment of the guides after the epoxy dried. Or conversely, I could not tweak the alignment of the guides after wrapping but before applying epoxy.

It is clear to me that the thread and the epoxy combine to form a system similar to plywood where the total structure has more strength than either of the components of it, stronger than the sum of the two.

Prove me wrong.

I could always shift a guide a little bit if wrapped with thread even a very tight thread wrap but that's not the case after epoxy is applied and cured so no argument from me.

I don't know about you, but my guides and their strength aren't measured side to side, but down. it's really simple, wrap a guide than try to pry it off the surface you wrapped it on. I have no idea how much load you think your guides are subjected to, but I bet you are grossly exaggerating the load.

I don't think Michael was inferring that wraps whether they be wrapped just with thread or thread and epoxy aren't strong enough . I never had any issues with taped on guides for test casting coming off even with considerable loads applied. They do move out of alignment however.

Michael,
IMO - you are absolutely correct. Thread is not enough.
The thread and epoxy form a composite material that secures the guides.
Think fiberglass and structural epoxy. Alone, they can't do the job.
Herb

from my university ays, a bridhe sufficient to support an automobile was made of corrugated cardboard, and glue. toothpicks and glue made a model train trestle. plywood, and particle board are stronger than the glue, or wood by themselves. The list goes on. Winding thread covered by epoxy. allowed to soak into the thread fibers is much stronger that is the thread, or epoxy alone. The thread provides tensile strength, while the epoxy forms a matrix that supports, and solidifies the thread. Any stress applied to the composite is distributed through the whole, and applied totherod blank as well. The epoxy also protects the thread against abrasion.

That's my take on it.

Tight Lies and frisky fish

RJF

The epoxy forms a ridge along the tunnel that exists along the sides of the guide foot between the thread and the rod blank. This ridge of epoxy (or CP or whatever you use) keeps the guide from shifting under the thread wrap. Otherwise the coating prevents moisture, etc., from affecting the wraps.

I don't think anyone has ever advocated not coating the thread with something.

...........

I never said anyone had advocated not coating. My question simply relates to the issue of whether or not the long-stated position that the strength of the wrap is due primarily due to the thread wrap is strue, or a combination of the thread and coating, like plywood or composite materials. My logic for supporting the latter is due to the fact that until the coating is applied the guides may easily be moved; after application they may not be moved even with a lot of force. Looks like some very knowledgeable builders agree.

I think you misunderstood earlier comments. The strength of the wrap is indeed primarily due to the thread - shifting under the wrap isn't due to a lack of strength. Affix a guide to the rod blank with nothing other than epoxy. Even after curing you can easily pop the guide off the rod with your fingers. Epoxy doesn't add strength in that capacity. But it does something else...

Combined with thread, epoxy keeps the guide from shifting under the wrap as I stated above. It adds an important element in that regard by building a ridge along the sides of the guide foot. It's not strength that is the issue here. The wraps are plenty strong but a smooth guide foot on a smooth rod blank needs an additional element to keep the guide foot from shifting.

...........

Michael Danek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> It is clear to me that the thread and the epoxy
> combine to form a system similar to plywood where
> the total structure has more strength than either
> of the components of it, stronger than the sum of
> the two.
>
> Prove me wrong.


Its easier to prove you right, just look at the billions and billions of rods built over the years, if wrap alone did the job or the finish alone did the job, economics would dictate rods would be built with one or the other.

PS, I agree

Have Fun

> Its easier to prove you right, just look at the
> billions and billions of rods built over the
> years, if wrap alone did the job or the finish
> alone did the job, economics would dictate rods
> would be built with one or the other.
>
> PS, I agree
>
> Have Fun


Have you ever seen anyone advocate for using bare thread without any sort of coating? I don't think so or at least I haven't seen anyone state such a thing.

The issue of wrap "strength" generally concerns those who worry about what size thread they need to use to ensure their guides don't tear through the wraps for whatever type fishing they may be doing. Guide shift is a different issue and most good builders advocate filling the tunnels with whatever finish you're using to take care of that issue.

..............

I have never seen or heard of a guide failing by coming away from the rod. That includes custom rods my dad built in the early 70's....production rods....rods I have built.....rods I and my friends and acquaintances have used. I have been fishing saltwater for 50+ years....That covers a lot of rods. Guides fail by abuse (rings and inserts damaged) and corrosion/water intrusion at the guide feet. Even then, I have not seen one pop off the rod. They even stay on with masking tape during testing.

Having said that....I always double wrap saltwater rods....one A under and one D over....or triple wrap 80 class or bigger rods....one A under 2 D over...and at least 2 coats of epoxy....sometimes 3 on the first guide or 2 in the train on a big rod. It just makes me feel better.

Joseph, Here is one even better if you are worried about really heavy duty salt and offshore rods. Ditch the epoxy. Use one wrap of size D or two if it makes you feel better, but instead of epoxy coat with Permagloss. I use as many as ten coats on these rods. Permagloss is water thin so even with ten coats you will not get the thickness of epoxy but its like putting concrete on your wraps. The stuff is so tough you will have trouble cutting it with a razor blade. And that is the only downside. If you have to replace a guide it is very hard to get the old one off. There is nothing else like this stuff if you are really interested in the strongest, toughest, and most durable wraps you can get.

Mike....I have used Permagloss to restore some old Lamiglass blanks and it worked very well. I wet a rag and gave the blank a quick swipe....it worked very well for me in that application, but that stuff is so hot I don't know if I could manage coating my wraps with it. That is a much slower process.....for me anyway.

Mike Ballard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joseph, Here is one even better if you are worried
> about really heavy duty salt and offshore rods.
> Ditch the epoxy. Use one wrap of size D or two if
> it makes you feel better, but instead of epoxy
> coat with Permagloss. I use as many as ten coats
> on these rods. Permagloss is water thin so even
> with ten coats you will not get the thickness of
> epoxy but its like putting concrete on your wraps.
> The stuff is so tough you will have trouble
> cutting it with a razor blade. And that is the
> only downside. If you have to replace a guide it
> is very hard to get the old one off. There is
> nothing else like this stuff if you are really
> interested in the strongest, toughest, and most
> durable wraps you can get.


The D size isn't really going to give you hardly any difference in the strength, when you take into consideration the actual strength of the thread and the amount of wraps per inch that are used due to the diameter difference

Ron Weber Wrote:

>
> The D size isn't really going to give you hardly
> any difference in the strength, when you take into
> consideration the actual strength of the thread
> and the amount of wraps per inch that are used due
> to the diameter difference


You are missing the point of using D thread. Guess you do not build many of these super heavy duty rods. These rods take abuse and they are made to take it but with A thread I have seen cuts and scrapes that go through to the blank. This rarely happens with D and almost never with two wraps of D. The Permagloss only makes it that much harder to cut or scrape into. You want think "durability" with these heavy rods.

Ok, so I am building two Black Hole Nano tuna popping rods. They will be tested on 150# plus yellowfin and who knows what else these guys will put the rod through. Should I double wrap with A then D? Normally when I double wrap, I'll use A then a coat of Permagloss to help the D slide easily when packing. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

I think this thread got off on the wrong foot! I never saw anyone advocate thread wrap only. The premise is that the thread provides "most" of the wrap strength or is the "primary" strength in a wrap.

If one does not believe this, test it for your self. Put on guide on with thread only and one with epoxy only, then try to pull each off the blank, you will see where the strength is!

I’ve always thought an epoxy saturated thread wrap was a composite, which is made from two dissimilar materials and when combined are stronger than those individual materials by themselves. In other words an epoxy reinforced fiber.Correct me if I’m wrong.
Norm

Mark Brassett Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ok, so I am building two Black Hole Nano tuna
> popping rods. They will be tested on 150# plus
> yellowfin and who knows what else these guys will
> put the rod through. Should I double wrap with A
> then D? Normally when I double wrap, I'll use A
> then a coat of Permagloss to help the D slide
> easily when packing. Is this a good thing or a
> bad thing?


Mark,

What you're doing will be more than good enough.

...........