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Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Joe Jon (---)
Date: August 11, 2022 04:47PM

Hi can anyone tell me how sensitive the point blanks are? The highest end rod I have is a poison adrena and I'm hoping they are at least on the same level if not more. I'm gonna try diving down the rabbit hole of building custom rods. Just want to know how it compares to other massed produced rods as well as maybe other manufacturers blanks before pulling the trigger. Thanks in advance.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 11, 2022 05:16PM

Oh boy! This is going to be a good string.

Sensitivity cannot be measured. It is even hard to define, meaning different things to different people. However, under the most common defintion, sensitivity means the ability to feel a bite. For many years rod experts have argued that sensitivity is proportional to the natural frequency of the blank/rod. And the natural frequency is proportional to the stiffness to weight ratio.

Dr. William Hanneman had a way of measuring the RELATIVE natural frequency of blanks and rods, called it CCF. His process required fastening a weight to the blank, the amount of weight determined by what he considered an appropriate amount of weight determined by the measured power (ERN). The problem with this process was that it was hard to fasten the weight to the blank, the amount of weight was somewhat arbitrary, determined by William's best judgment of what it should be.

With the technology now available in Android devices it is possible to quickly measure the true natural frequency of a blank/rod. If you believe that sensitivity is proportional to true natural frequency (no weight added, just the bare blank or rod), then you can measure the TNF.

From my measurements of TNF there are no blanks with the same powers and actions that have higher natural frequencies than Point Blanks. If you want to know how to measure TNF send me an email. It is open.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: August 11, 2022 05:32PM

I agree with Micheal. Using his method for measuring the natural frequency of a blank, the Point Blanks as a group had the highest natural frequencies of all the blanks I’ve measured. They are excellent blanks, and I like them a lot.
Norm

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: chris c nash (---.atmc.net)
Date: August 11, 2022 05:43PM

Shimano's Poison Adrena series are very very sensitive and use Shimano's Spiral X tech. How they would compare to Point Blanks or NFC's latest is anyone's guess. I believe all would be very very good sensitivity wise with none being vastly superior to the other.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 11, 2022 06:42PM

This is sure to start some controversy but just as it changed Emory Harry's mind, it will change a lot of others once they try the practical test, which I will state in the next issue of the magazine.

All else being equal - a longer rod is a more "sensitive" rod.

And again we find ourselves discussing a subject that has to be defined or at least reduced to a specific type of sensitivity before certain arguments are true.

..............

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 11, 2022 07:24PM

"All else being equal." That means the same ERN and same AA? Of course the same material. Right?

I submit that of rods of equal length, the most sensitive rod is the one with the highest TNF.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2022 07:35PM by Michael Danek.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Leslie Cline (---)
Date: August 11, 2022 07:47PM

Maybe Mick and Norm can throw out a couple of TNF numbers to compare a couple different blanks they have tested versus the PB's?

A little different angle: To my subjective experience, all else being equal between two blanks, the lighter built rod will feel more sensitive. So, going the custom route is the way to go to increase the 'sensitivity factor' by using light-weight blanks, components, and best practices.

There also is a point where things get 'sensitive enough' for me. That, too, is different for everyone.

Bottom line, I hope you will take that dive into the rabbit hole of rod building. And if this really is your first build, I suggest starting out with a 'practice blank' or two. I think you will find you can build a rod that is much more sensitive than most of the rack-rods out there.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: August 11, 2022 08:03PM

Joe, hang on and enjoy the ride, both in building and in reading the various posts.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 11, 2022 08:17PM

Leslie, yes , the lighter rod will feel more sensitive since it has a higher stiffness to weight ratio. When you add guides the TNF goes down. The TNF process can show the difference between titanium and SS guides. It all makes sense.

I'm reluctant to provide numbers because I don't have blanks from different brands that are identical in the typical specs, length, AA , and ERN. But I have tested many blanks that are similar, so many that I think it significant that no blank I've tested has a TNF as high as similar Point Blanks. Two other builders have done enough blanks that they agree with my conclusion. I also have not tested all the thousands of blanks available. I think it wise for those who are interested to test their own blanks/rods and come to their own conclusions on blanks that they are interested in. For example, a good comparison would be RX10 vs Point Blank. Another would be St Croix SCV vs Point Blank. I have done a few that are in these suggested comparisons. Of course I have not tested the new CO2somethingorother blanks, but I have tested the Xrays that everyone seems so hot for.

As previously mentioned, one can see the effect of different guides and guide materials on TNF. Whether the differences make sense depends on how you interpret the data and how much you think a higher TNF is of value.

So far, Point Blank has the highest TNF's.

Regarding a newbie builder starting with a Point Blank, I would not recommend it. They are sort of pricey and I think it would be good to get a build or two under the belt with less expensive blanks to gain skills and confidence in component choice and design dimensions, like seat location.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 11, 2022 09:28PM

Michael Danek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "All else being equal." That means the same ERN
> and same AA? Of course the same material.
> Right?
>
> I submit that of rods of equal length, the most
> sensitive rod is the one with the highest TNF.


All else being equal, except for length, the longer rod will be more sensitive, even though it will possess a lower stiffness to weight ratio.

...............

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: August 11, 2022 09:59PM

Here are some numbers I measured. I posted these a while back.

NFC MB736 X-ray- Ip= 668g, AA = 71, freq = 489
NFC SJ736 X-ray - IP = 793, AA = 75, freq. = 500
NFC SJ703 X-ray - IP=343, AA= 73, freq = 433
NFC SJ732 X-ray- IP=422, AA=78, freq = 445
NFC SB724 X-ray- IP=463, AA=74.5, freq = 480

PB691MXF - IP=541, AA=77, freq = 600
PB691MLXF- IP=512, AA=77, freq = 592
PB701MLF- IP=570, AA=77, freq = 616
PB731MLF- IP =599, AA=73, freq= 510
PB731MXF - IP=764, AA=82, freq=610
PB731MHXF- IP=826, AA=79, freq =600

MHX MB843 - IP=699, AA=74, freq = 444

Norm

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 12, 2022 06:13AM

":All else being equal, except for length," Please define exactly what "all else being equal means. " Does it mean same ERN and AA? Yes or no, some other measure of equality. thanks

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 12, 2022 08:18AM

I may as well get the fun started ..... " a lighter rod will feel more sensitive". "Feel" requires actually holding the rod, and sensing the information the rod is transmitting to your hand. Gripping a rod more tightly will dampen some of the sensation your hand feels. Therefore, IMO, the better balanced rod is going to feel more sensitive.

As far as the Point Blank blanks go. I have yet to build on a Point Blank. I've never even touched one. Many of the members here love them. And as you can see from the CCS numbers that Norman posted for them, they are pretty unique when you consider their actions along with the power of each individual blank. If you ask me, the combination of action and power are the reason they have the higher TNF numbers you see.That doesn't mean I believe one thing or another. It's just an observation.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 12, 2022 09:10AM

Yes, same power and action. Only difference is the length, and therefore some additional weight.

...........

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 12, 2022 10:57AM

Got it, thanks.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Joe Jon (---)
Date: August 12, 2022 04:00PM

Thanks for all the responses. I'll start with a few starter builds before I move onto high end blanks. But it sounds to me that the lighter and more balanced I make the build the more sensitive and efficient it is? Even if it means putting more weight towards the butt for balance?

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 12, 2022 04:08PM

"But it sounds to me that the lighter and more balanced I make the build the more sensitive and efficient it is? Even if it means putting more weight towards the butt for balance?" Yes and no, in my opinion. Yes to the first part, no to the second. This is a matter of strong opinions in the rodbuilding/rodusing world. I personally never add wegith to the butt of a rod; others swear by it. So I suggest before adding anything permanent you do the first half (lightest/best ballanced) then tape on weights before adding them permanently. If you think you're serious about adding weights you might conside not glueing the butt knob on until you've tried it out and made your decision.

There is a nice article in the magazine about balance-I expect someone will be able to tell us which issue.

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 12, 2022 04:55PM

Joe, you are going to get various opinions concerning the latter part of your post. Adding weight to a rod in the name of balance is one of the more spirited discussions you will find on this site. Many will say that adding weight to a rod for any purpose other than what is required to build a functioning rod, is a bad idea. And that it will degrade rod performance. And if we're strictly speaking of how a rod performs in a bench test, they're probably right.

Then you will have those like me that believe if weight has a purpose, like achieving a certain degree of balance for a rod and reel combination, then that weight improves rod performance. I describe the comparison between the two as one rod performs brilliantly while it's lying on the deck of your boat, and one performs brilliantly while it's in your hands being used. There are no doubts that the two can coincide without the need to add extra weight, But if you've ever fished a tip heavy rod and reel combination and one that isn't tip heavy or is actually tip light, then you will have known the difference in feel between the two rods.

IMO, rod and reel combination balance is one of the key factors when it comes to rods that will be used for semi slack line presentations, where the rod is fished tip up, and you're trying to feel not just a bite, but really pretty much anything you can think of that could make a difference in catching fish. How well a rod and reel balances or to what the degree the rod is balanced. i.e. neutrally balanced or tip light, etc .... is of course, all based on personal preference. You may be able to build a rod that balances out beautifully with the reel you'll be using on it, but if you can't, consider this. There are members of this site, myself included that believe that where the weight is added is what makes the difference in rod performance. Weight behind the reel seat doesn't have nearly the affect on rod performance as weight ahead of the reel seat does.

I should also mention that there will be those that suggest moving the reel seat to get the type of balance you're looking for, instead of adding weight to the butt of the rod. I would caution against that course of action. The location of the reel seat directly affects the usability of the rod, because it directly affects the length of the rear grip. If I were to make a suggestion on a path to follow as far as reel seat placement goes, it would be to place it in the same place as a rod that you currently have that handles the way you like it. You have to be able to use the rod, so why would you do something that would possibly make it more difficult to use?

And finally concerning whether or not your first build should be on a premium blank, or not. I say if you have a background in working with your hands and an attention to detail kind of mind, then build on a premium blank. I just don't think a Point Blank blank would be a good one for your first build. And that is strictly based on the textured surface of the blank. It could make the first attempts at wrapping a guide a bit of an adventure. Otherwise I say go for it. After all, the idea of building yourself a rod is to build something you're going to use

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: August 12, 2022 05:31PM

The Point Blank’s texture Is not very rough at all. They are slightly sanded but do have a little texture to them, but it does not hinder wrapping at all. Quite different from the more extreme texture on the original unsanded NFC X-ray blanks. Try one you’ll like it.
Norm

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Re: Point blank sensitivity compared
Posted by: Jason Gofron (---)
Date: August 12, 2022 08:09PM

I have nrx rods I have custom sc5 blanks a custom kistler Zbone. The point blanks are right up there I actually feel of the rods mentioned the kistler Zbone built on a X-ray is the least sensitive of the group. The point blank seems to just float in my hands

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