A taut and a straight line are not the same thing. A line that isn't straight between rod tip and lure isn't necessarily slack. If water or current are sufficient to put the line in tension, you can feel resistance even if there is a large deviation or curvature in the line path.

But if a line is truly slack, you will not feel anything. Impossible.

............

Tom, this latest post of yours is hand in hand as to why I disagreed with your results of the worm slapping experiment.

An excerpt from my first post to this thread ..... "Slapping the worm is going to cause it to stop momentarily, and it will also increase the tension on the line momentarily. And you will feel that."

In the experiment you posed, you said the worm was being retrieved. Line is under tension during a retrieve. Of course how much tension depends on various factors, but it's still under tension.

Another excerpt from a post I made to this thread . This one from my second post to this thread " Tom. with all due respect, I'm not guessing here either. Nor am I stating theories. Slapping the worm changes the tension on the line. and you can feel it. You may not be able to feel it at distance, but I assure you that you can feel it when the fish is in 4' of water, 10 to 20' from your boat."

The amount of line out plays a major role in how much an angler will feel. I know many anglers, and have read from a few rod builders that believe that you don't necessarily need to use the most sensitive rod when flipping or pitching for bass, because they are short line techniques. I happen to agree with, and follow that philosophy. The rods I have built for short line techniques, while being built on good sensitive blanks. are not built on that manufacturers flag ship blanks. On the other hand, the rods I've built that I will be making long casts with, are built on blanks that are considered to be that manufacturers flag ship blanks. If I am going to have a lot of line out, I want to use the most sensitive rod I can.

And a final excerpt from one of my posts to this thread ....This one again, from my very first post ...... " As far as not being able to feel anything on a slack line, I think we need to define the term "slack line" If the only time line is truly slack is when there is zero tension in the line between the rod tip, and where the line enters the water. then yes. You aren't going to feel anything on a slack line."

I know you aren't going to feel anything on a truly slack line. I also know that just because there is even slight tension on the line, it doesn't mean that you will automatically be able to feel something. Many a time the only indication that a fish has taken my bait as it falls, is seeing the line start to move off to the side. And even though it may be very slight .... there is tension on the line as a bait is falling.

And finally .... I have read how or why I and others are feeling things, and what that feel is the result of. None of these explanations explain to me why I can feel the difference in what my bait falls on. I can feel when my bait falls on a rock, but I can't feel that same bait when it falls on a mud bottom. If all I am feeling is the bait stopping, then how am I able to discern what it stopped on?

If we we really want to get into feel, we can start talking the difference between tungsten and lead or steel weights. But that may result in going down yet another rabbit hole LOL

When we slapped the worm we did not stop it. If we had stopped it, the guy on the rod end would have felt it.

Pick up a copy of the Doug Hannen-Glen Lau book. Glen video taped these sort of scenarios, including actual fish strikes in real-world fishing situations, with the same results.

......

LOL okay .

Tom, I am a bass fisherman, and have been more than serious about it for 35 plus years. I have seen many of the videos you mentioned, and read several of Doug Hannon's books. I also am a fan of Hook N' Look, a show that is hosted by Kim Stricker where they use under water footage to verify what you have stated happened in the worm experiment.

I know you can't always feel what is happening with your bait under water. I know a bass can take a bait in, even a crankbait with all of its' treble hooks dangling, and spit it out, without the angler never knowing such a thing took place. I have not said in any of my posts to this thread that I can feel everything that happens while fishing, 100% of the time. I know better than that. But I also know what I am able to feel at times, and it clashes with your explanations as to why I can feel it.

I will go back to asking you to explain why I am able to tell if my weight landed on a hard surface or not? I can assure you that at times, I can feel such an occurrence. And I am sure I am not alone in this ability. If it's simply because the bait has stopped moving, then why can I tell what caused it to stop moving?

It's because there is more to feeling something than the parameters you laid out.

Finally, I'm done. All you guys can go on without worrying about me making a big deal out of what seems to mean nothing.

David, Tom,

One variable that can't be overlooked is the fisherman. Not everyone is going to feel the same.
Having that "feel" is a skill and some part of that may actually be genetics.

For every artificial fly or worm or plug a fish inhales and spits out what percentage do you supposed is never "felt" by the angler, regardless of equipment being used?

It,s much lower if your using braid..Often when stripping a streamer, you will hook a fish..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/07/2022 12:00PM by ben belote.

I myself have seen what tom K. observed, while at a fly fishing symposium many years ago, an instructor made vastly pronounced movements of the fly after a 60 ft cast and the angler felt nothing.

why I am able to tell if my weight landed on a hard surface or not?

One can tell because the line is not absolutely slack. A line with a sinking weight will have a little tension in it and one can feel how the tension ends, whether quickly or more slowly as with the sinker landing on mud. The only slack line is a line with nothing on the end, and even then because of water resistance it can have a little tension.

Until and unless you have a person or diver submerged in the water watching your retrieve, you cannot possibly know what you are NOT feeling.

.............

I'm pretty sure I can feel it, Lol

If a fish hits a moving hook from behind - which is their usual angle of attack - it seems it would create slack in the line at first, not a tug. What attributes in a rod would make it more sensitive to slack - opposed to pull?

I might be new to building, but I'm not new to fishing so @PHIL I would posit this - the best indicator of a fish taking a MovinG lure and creating slack would be that you feel a change in the resistance during your retrieve. I think these are the more challenging bites to feel, especially with lures that only create a little resistance to begin with (small worm 1/8 oz weight). It will suddenly feel lighter and if there is little change vs a 1/2-3/4 oz lure suddenly felling lighter it can be tough.

But, the only thing I can think of as it pertains to our tools helping us sense a take like that would be a rod that has a noticeable bend during the retrieve - a take from behind creating slack would then cause the rod to unload some and depending on all the factors involved that may be something you notice as well.

Honestly I find myself often asking myself what I was just doing when a fish bit but often don't really know - I was trying this and this and this and then I wasn't really paying exact attention to the line,rod,weather,retrieve speed, wind, duration of a pause, was it while I twitched/sped up or just after/on the fall etc. I wish my brain would capture all this data for me at the time of a catch so I can be more intentional the rest of the day and others going forward.

Phil,
I agree with some of the comments about line stretch not being a very big detractor for line sensitivity.

In a nutshell, when the line is simply laying in the water, the line has essentially 0 stretch. If a fish nibbles on the end of the line, the unstretched line transmits the nibble very well back to the rod and to the hand of the holder.

There are many many line sensing fishermen who do not rely on the vibration being transmitted to the rod and then to the fisherman.

Rather, they hold the line between a couple of fingers, so that their finger can sense directly the bite coming up the line and not having to rely on that vibration being transmitted to the rod etc.

However, when the line is under tension as it is being fished - i.e. a heavy weight on the line, or lots and lots of line out and it is pulling a heavy dragging lure, then there will be a lot of stretch, and under those circumstance, I personally feel that I can have better feel of the bite of a fish with a non stretch line like a braid.

As far as I am concerned, fluoro line is in the same category as mono and do not give it high marks for passing on the bite of a light biting fish.

Best wishes.

As we are talking about experiments: next time when you are fishing in a river (or current of any kind) please put your ear to your rod and you will be surprised how much noise it creates. And generally, the thicker the line the more noisy the setup is. I use braided lines exclusively now, wtith fluorocarbon or mono leaders. It gave second life to my e-glass rods, I've found the combination of braided line + e-glass rod very efficient and I think I prefer it over mono line + graphite rod. I think that thin braided line contributes more to sensitivity than any other element of the fishing gear.

As for Tom's worm experiment. I wonder what the result would be, if instead of worm there was a hard bait at the end - metal spoon or crankbait ? What would you say Tom ?
Second issue: did you use spinning reel or baitcast reel in this experiment ? What was the mechanical condition of this reel ? (What I want to say is that sometimes you feel the gearing of the reel so much during the retrieve that it can be hard to feel anything else)

Best regards,
Pavel



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2022 10:55PM by Pawel Tymendorf.

For myself, I've gotten away from my roots and want to go back and fish more of my old favorite, Trilene XL. I caught almost all of my fish on it back in the day. If I totaled all fish caught lifetime for me, Trilene XL would be far ahead of all the others. Makes sense because it was what I used the most. However, I don't recall ever thinking or wishing for a different kind of line because I felt I was missing bites/fish because of the line. (This was an upgrade over Stren, which was the first "premium" mono I was introduced to as a kid, IMO)

I began using the early versions of Spider Wire a couple decades later. I admit that I liked it because the bites felt, to me, more sharp and crisp. But I can't say I felt more bites, or missed more fish because of it. There were downsides, too:
Cut fingers, wrapped guides, un-savable backlashes and knots/tangles, cost. Tradeoffs. That's all. Not necessarily more fish or more fun.

I understand mono is not the best for EVERYTHING and every circumstance. Of course not. My point is that I want to spool up some old school XL and take it on my next trip. I have a hunch that I will like it just fine for the kind of fishing I do.

I'm no luddite. I fish braid to mono/fluoro leader the most today. I imagine the newest "wonder lines" to come in the future, and will probably try them. They, too, will have tradeoffs.

In the meantime, my best knots are, "The best knot I can can tie"; good quality, sharp hooks; and knowing my strong suits as a fisherman are more important to catching fish than the type of line.

I still love Trilene XL.

Mono for life! I use it on all of my inshore casting reels. I use braid for offshore. Since I started building spinning rods I went to braid as it allows for a much smaller butt guide.