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Re: line stretch
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 05, 2022 04:52PM

Tom, I have to disagree with what you said about not being able to feel someone slapping your worm as it's being retrieved in a swimming pool. Reason being, you pretty much outlined why you could feel it, with your most recent post.

Slapping the worm is going to cause it to stop momentarily, and it will also increase the tension on the line momentarily. And you will feel that. The better the equipment, the more easily it is felt. I'm sure I'm not the only one that has had small bluegill come up and hit your line where it enters the water. You can definitely feel that. Now the little bugger may actually be biting the line, or they may just be bumping it. But you can feel it.

I know I can feel my line sliding down the bark of a laydown. I can feel the vibration of my weight sliding down the face of a rock. I would consider the line in those instances to be semi slack. I can feel those vibrations much better with fluorocarbon line, than I can with braided line. Increase the tension on the line and braided line starts to pull ahead as far as sensitivity goes.

As far as not being able to feel anything on a slack line, I think we need to define the term "slack line" If the only time line is truly slack is when there is zero tension in the line between the rod tip, and where the line enters the water. then yes. You aren't going to feel anything on a slack line.

But others may consider a line to be slack if the wind blows a bow in the line, or if the line is sagging between the rod tip, and where the line enters the water. A sagging line is not truly slack, but some may consider it to be. You can definitely feel things on a sagging line. I know I can feel my weight hit the bottom if the bottom is rock. I can feel the weight tick a tree branch on its' way to the bottom. This isn't happening on a truly slack line, but there is very little tension on it.

And as far as testing the stretch of various lines, or their advertised stretch factors goes. Testing fishing line dry doesn't tell the whole story. When you get line wet, their characteristics change. Nylon mono filament lines stretch more when wet, Some fluorocarbon lines stretch more when wet. This is because they absorb water. The more water a line absorbs, the more its' characteristics change. Stretch increases, abrasion resistance decreases. breaking strength decreases, knot strength decreases. Diameter increases, the weight of the line increases. Some lines absorb water more quickly than others

Tackle Tour did some interesting testing on fluorocarbon lines. Testing lines both wet and dry. Their testing matches the experiences I have had with some of the lines they tested. If anyone is interested just go to Tackle Tour and look under the line category and look for their Fluorocarbon Shootout. There is a Part 1 and a Part 2 article. Interesting reading and IMO it relates to real world use. Dry testing fishing line isn't real world. No one I know fishes with an entirely dry fishing line.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/05/2022 04:53PM by David Baylor.

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 05, 2022 06:22PM

David,

No, you won't feel it. I'm not guessing here. I spent dozens and dozens of hours trying it. Slapping the worm doesn't stop it. It only changes its course momentarily and you won't feel that. I'm not guessing or stating theories. Get a buddy and go try it.

Conversely, stopping or resisting the lure is something you will feel. What we most often talk about in regards to sensitivity isn't "vibration," it's leverage on the rod. A spinner bait creates vibrations on the fall (slack line) but you won't feel it. You only feel something if is is resisting, pulling against or stopping your effort.

...........

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: David Baylor (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: August 05, 2022 08:32PM

Tom. with all due respect, I'm not guessing here either. Nor am I stating theories. Slapping the worm changes the tension on the line. and you can feel it. You may not be able to feel it at distance, but I assure you that you can feel it when the fish is in 4' of water, 10 to 20' from your boat.

I have watched smallmouth bass in extremely clear water that were on beds come up and hit my bait with a closed mouth as they try and knock the bait away from the bed. I have also felt it when they quickly turn away and their tail slaps my bait. They are simply knocking the bait sideways, and you can feel that as a tick on the line.

It's not my imagination,, and I am sure I am not the only one that has fished for bedding smallmouth to experience it. I have seen it and felt it happen many times.

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: Mark Brassett (---)
Date: August 05, 2022 08:33PM

When you slap at the worm are you actually making contact or is the pressure wave from the water movement moving the lure?

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: Terry Kirk (---)
Date: August 05, 2022 08:55PM

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom. with all due respect, I'm not guessing here
> either. Nor am I stating theories. Slapping the
> worm changes the tension on the line. and you can
> feel it. You may not be able to feel it at
> distance, but I assure you that you can feel it
> when the fish is in 4' of water, 10 to 20' from
> your boat.
>
> I have watched smallmouth bass in extremely clear
> water that were on beds come up and hit my bait
> with a closed mouth as they try and knock the bait
> away from the bed. I have also felt it when they
> quickly turn away and their tail slaps my bait.
> They are simply knocking the bait sideways, and
> you can feel that as a tick on the line.
>
> It's not my imagination,, and I am sure I am not
> the only one that has fished for bedding
> smallmouth to experience it. I have seen it and
> felt it happen many times.

I'll float my bobber with you. Many the times after casting a light jig for spawning crappie the line will be slack for a few seconds but the tap is pronounced on the slack line. I thinl forward facing sonar could make the case also.

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 05, 2022 09:36PM

Mark Brassett Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When you slap at the worm are you actually making
> contact or is the pressure wave from the water
> movement moving the lure?

The guy I performed these experiments with was slapping the worm. I was so upset that I couldn't feel it I tended not to believe him. I got some more guys, good fishermen, to join in and got in the water and knocked the worm a full foot off-course, they never felt it.

............

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: August 05, 2022 11:34PM

At the end of the day, it is silly to say whether one can or cannot feel something unique in the water.

The thing that concerns fisher folks is what setup lets that person catch and put more fish in the boat.

You can call it sensitivity, line stretch - or lack of stretch, or a super duper rod, or an ultra slick reel.

It simply does not matter and no point in arguing about it.

The thing that does matter is that for a particular person trying to catch a fish - what particular pieces of gear lets that particular person put more fish in the boat.

So, lets simply compromise and forget about line stretch, rod sensitivity, guide weight, or guide size or shape.

Let simply say that with particular setup A or B or C or D - one of the setups made up of a particular blank, reel, grip, guide set, line, lure, hook - puts a bunch more fish in the boat. !!!!!

This compared to the 3 other setups with one or more of the component pieces simply put fewer fish in the boat.

It is up to you as the person that is fishing, to quietly try the various combinations until you have - what works better than any other setup and simply call it setup #1 and go fishing.

No need to argue, no need to preach, simply quietly assemble the piece parts, put the gear together and take the gear out for a wonderful fish getting day on the water.

Best wishes

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 06, 2022 05:54AM

What is the definition of "slapping the worm?" Is it not possible that we are not all using the same definition?

Roger, with due respect, I'm not about to forget all I've learned about blanks, lines, guides, grips, etc. What I've learned allows me to predict how setups will work under most conditions, allowing me to duplicate the good ones and avoid the bad ones. I know where my money is well spent and where it is not. What if the fish are turned off when I try setup B and I catch nothing? Hang it up in the garage and never use it again because it didn't catch fish?

I don't think you, even though you are advocating this strategy, use it.

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 06, 2022 09:56AM

As the worm passes, you slap it from the side. The water slows you down a bit but you can knock if off course. The guy on the rod end won't feel it.

The only thing you can feel on the rod end is resistance of some sort. Anything that isn't pulling on, stopping or resisting the lure or bait won't be felt. Even the crankbait or spinnerbait that you think is creating vibrations that you feel with the rod is really creating resistance against your efforts to retrieve it. That's what you're feeling. So we get back to considering just what is "sensitivity." In most cases sensitivity isn't a one-dimensional thing.

There is a practical test you can do, and it's the one I gave Emory Harry to try and which changed his mind about a lot of what we consider sensitivity in a rod. I'll write it up shortly and pass it on. It doesn't require any special equipment.

.............

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 06, 2022 11:18AM

You mean there is no sensitivitometer?

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 06, 2022 11:50AM

So I can't feel something ticking my line? I can't feel a blue gill slap my line where it enters the water? A rather common occurrence, not just for me, but I'd imagine for many other anglers as well.

I can't feel the ticklish feeling I sometimes feel when a ball of fry swims by my line and the line passes right through the middle of the ball of fry? I can't feel that?

I can't feel my sinker sliding down the face of rocks that were placed in the water to mitigate erosion? I can't feel that?

I can't feel the loss of vibration of a spinnerbait blade or a crankbait because a fish has come up behind it and taken the bait in without turning away? I can't feel that loss of vibration? That loss of water resistance? So when I set the hook and have a fish on in those instances, I'm not really feeling the loss of vibration or water resistance ..... I'm feeling something else?

This is like reading that I don't flip right, because my hand that controls the line doesn't touch the rod in front of the reel while working a bait.

Here is an experiment that anyone with a fishing rod can do. Take your rod and pull off enough line so you can hold the end of of the line in the same hand you're holding the rod in. Let the line droop, with the only tension on the line being that which the weight of the line creates. Now with your off hand, flick the line between the tip of the rod and your hand that is holding the bait. Flick it in the same manner you would flick someone's head with your finger to get their attention.

Tell me if you can feel it through the rod.

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 06, 2022 02:35PM

If you want the greatest sensitivity a hand-line is your best bet - no rod weight/inertia or rod flexibility to deaden feeling the bite.

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: August 06, 2022 02:43PM

Michael,
Of course remember and use what you have learned to build better rods.

The point of my comment is that it doesn't make any difference as to a definition of a worm slap, a minnow fart, or a blue gill hiccup.

Remember what you have learned about rod building, components etc.

Just don't get hung up on an argument about things that make 0 difference about catching a fish, or some vague word that may have a million different definitions.

Rather, build the rod of your choice that you build better and better each time that it is built and enjoy the fruits of your labor.

Just don't go off the edge of the plank by getting in definitions of words, of this and or that. Just concentrate on the large and small points about building a wonderful job to catch the fish for which it was designed.

Have a great day - with a great big glowing sunset at the end of the day.

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 06, 2022 03:06PM

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So I can't feel something ticking my line? I can't
> feel a blue gill slap my line where it enters the
> water? A rather common occurrence, not just for
> me, but I'd imagine for many other anglers as
> well.
>
> I can't feel the ticklish feeling I sometimes feel
> when a ball of fry swims by my line and the line
> passes right through the middle of the ball of
> fry? I can't feel that?
>
> I can't feel my sinker sliding down the face of
> rocks that were placed in the water to mitigate
> erosion? I can't feel that?
>
> I can't feel the loss of vibration of a
> spinnerbait blade or a crankbait because a fish
> has come up behind it and taken the bait in
> without turning away? I can't feel that loss of
> vibration? That loss of water resistance? So when
> I set the hook and have a fish on in those
> instances, I'm not really feeling the loss of
> vibration or water resistance ..... I'm feeling
> something else?
>
> This is like reading that I don't flip right,
> because my hand that controls the line doesn't
> touch the rod in front of the reel while working a
> bait.
>
> Here is an experiment that anyone with a fishing
> rod can do. Take your rod and pull off enough line
> so you can hold the end of of the line in the same
> hand you're holding the rod in. Let the line
> droop, with the only tension on the line being
> that which the weight of the line creates. Now
> with your off hand, flick the line between the tip
> of the rod and your hand that is holding the bait.
> Flick it in the same manner you would flick
> someone's head with your finger to get their
> attention.
>
> Tell me if you can feel it through the rod.


You can feel something "ticking" your line under one condition - whatever it is must be resisting your retrieve in some manner (a minute stop, pull, etc). If it's not at least doing one of these things you won't feel it.

..........

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 06, 2022 03:22PM

"about things that make 0 difference about catching a fish,"

I submit that the subject of this string of posts, line sensitivity, has a lot to do about catching fish.

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: August 06, 2022 03:58PM

For lack of a better, all encompassing word, what you're "feeling" in a fishing situation is always some form of resistance.

.............

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 06, 2022 05:22PM

As a bass fisherman, the majority of the type of fishing I do, relies on the ability to detect a bite, and the ability to feel what the bait I am using is doing, by feeling it through the rod in my hand. Without line to serve as the connection between rod and hook, I'm not going to be able to feel a bite, and I'm not going to be able to catch a fish.

While the sensitivity different line types provide may not mean a thing to a person using a hook and a couple of split shot under a bobber when fishing for pan fish, it means a whole lot to a bass fisherman trying to feel when a fish gently takes a bait, or to a steelhead fisherman trying to feel the tick tick tick as they drift a spawn sack at the head of a pool. To imply that line sensitivity makes zero difference in catching fish is ludicrous.

It's a fact that line sensitivity can be the difference between hooking just a few fish over a day of fishing, or hooking many fish over that same day of fishing. It's also a fact that line stretch can play a major role in how many of those hooked fish make it to the net, or to the boat. And it's not always the most sensitive line, or the line with the least amount of stretch that wins the day. The line you use can and does matter when it comes to catching fish.

No ifs ands or buts about it.

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: John DeMartini (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: August 06, 2022 05:26PM

The only communication link from your lure to your rod tip is the fishing line. The fact that all lines are not "created equal" means this communication signal varies from line to line.

Anything pecking, slapping, bumping will never be felt unless there is some tension in the line from the lure to the tip of the rod. When the "worm is slapped" the bump is transmitted thru the taut line to the tip of the rod and the rod action (which is meat for another dinner) processes this signal to the reel/grip and alerts the angler.

The classic example, when I was a young child we did the "can and string telephone" it only worked when the string was taut and like fishing lines different kinds of strings work better than others.

As always it is the angler that chooses what they are comfortable with.

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: August 06, 2022 05:36PM

For me sensitivity is for the bite and tug. Mono can stretch 10% to 30% depending on how much line is out past the tip of the rod and the thickness of the line. The more line, the more stretch. 100' of line = 10' of stretch. Braid doesn't have near the amount of stretch. I totally agree that the rod is part of a system that includes rod, reel, and line. I have found that reels with mono benefit with a fast, extra fast action (stiffer) and reels with braid need a slower action rod. It is all about the mechanics of hooking the fish and keeping it on the hook. Most of the time, the sensitivity is not going to come into play other than prepare you for the bite. I think a large part of this system can be whether you use artificial, real bait or both. For both, you are going to have to make concessions, it’s not going to be perfect for everything. Of course, braid is more sensitive due to its rigidity and lack of elasticity, but it is not always going to be right for that particular rod and action. Her is my break down of the system as I see it.

• Rod / action, line rating and desired purpose.
• Reel / line type and rating, type, retrieve speed and desired attributes.
• Line / Type, rating, stretch and desired properties.
• Baits and attached hardware.

This is pretty easy. If I know this, then I can build a decent rod for that person. With graphite, new style fiberglass or hybrid blank, it is going to be as sensitive as it is going to be with whatever system is used. It needs to be able use the baits, leaders, lines and give the best chance of keeping the fish hooked till landed.

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Re: line stretch
Posted by: Terry Kirk (---)
Date: August 06, 2022 07:13PM

There has been many times when vertical fishing for crappie that the jig is picked up as the line is sinking and more times than not the fish is rising creating even more slack and the feel or sensitivity of this kind of bite is very noticeable. The tics on a slack line are noticeable even more when using braid over mono. YMMV

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