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Pages: 123Next
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Too many guides?
Posted by: Ernie Blum (---)
Date: July 31, 2022 09:58AM

I recently finished a NFC 703-1, and I love it! I used a 20-10-5.5 reduction, and ultimately 5 more 5.5 running guides plus the tip top. The blank is 7' long, and so it took 8 guides plus the tip. Not long after I purchased the 703, I decided to try to put one together that was a little heavier, and ended up with a MB 765-1 Neo. This one is 7 1/2 feet long.

I saw no reason not to set up this one the same way as the 703, which I did. The stripper guides for both are at about 19 and 3/4 inches from the face of the reel at mid cycle, and by the time I mounted 5 running guides beyond the reduction train, there was definitely room for two more guides in my opinion. So, for a 7 1/2 rod blank, it is now set up (not yet permanently) with 10 guides plus the tip top. It kind of looks like a fly rod with a spinning reel at first glance. :-)

Is there any reason not to keep this arrangement? It seems to bend the rod and run the line nicely, but I was just wondering if I was flirting with any rod building taboos in doing this.

ALSO...I purchased the blank quite some time ago, and when I began working on it, I discovered that it had a gentle kink starting at about 5 or six inches from the tip. The axis of the kink runs at about 90 degrees from the axis of the spine of the blank, but again is very gentle. In fact, it doesn't seem quite as pronounced since I have temporarily mounted the guides. The handle assembly however is on to stay! Will this affect the way the rod performs to any significant degree?

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: July 31, 2022 11:25AM

When it comes to wrapping and fastening things to a rod blank, less is more - if performance is your goal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2022 11:38AM by Phil Ewanicki.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: David Baylor (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: July 31, 2022 12:33PM

Contrary to what Phil just said. less is not always more if performance is your goal.

One of the performance attributes of a fishing rod, is how the rod handles the stress involved in fighting and landing fish. Too few guides can cause the blank to over flex between guides, which could lead to broken rods. Adding a guide or two, will enable the line to more closely follow the natural bend profile of the blank, which will reduce the likelihood of rod failure. I've you're horsing fish out of heavy cover, or boat flipping fish, I am of the opinion that you are better off with more guides, than less guides.

While there can definitely be something as too few guides, I think that only you can determine if you have too many guides. If you are looking to protect the blank from poor fishing fighting or fish landing techniques, more is better.

Just to give you a perspective. I have a rod built on an NFC SJ 704 blank that is similar in power to the NFC 703 blank you mentioned. It's a spinning rod using the same KR reduction train and running guide size you outlined. It too is a 7' long rod, and I have 10 guides on it, plus the tip top

As far as the rod you're building on the 765 NEO blank, my guess is that I would have 11, maybe even 12 guides, plus the tip top, on that rod. Static guide placement and how closely you want the lines path to follow the natural curve of the blank will determine how many guides you need. And since preferred line path is subjective, so too is the number of guides that might be used.

Also, you've seemed to describe a gentle curve in the blank, and not a kink. My definition of a kink is more abrupt. Be that as it may, it is not out of the ordinary for a blank to have a curve in it. Personally I ignore the spine of the blank, and build on the straightest axis of the blank. If the blank has a curve I will orient the components on the blank with the curve pointing up. As you described, the weight of the guides will cause the blank to look straight. If it's a casting rod the guides go on the concave side of the curve. If it's a spinning rod, the guides go on the convex side of the curve.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: July 31, 2022 12:49PM

Ernie, using your 703 rod, ty the line to something solid, back off and make several practice hook sets, concentrating on how stiff the rod feels..Now untie and thread the line through the butt guide and skip every other guide out to the tip and ty off to something solid again..Make several practice hook sets again concentrating on the rods stiffness..Ask yourself, do you like more or less guides? More guides, within reason, make for firmer hook sets and give you more feel of the fish in a fish fight.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: July 31, 2022 12:53PM

listen to David..lol. Also, it may be worth trying #5 running guides.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2022 01:11PM by ben belote.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: July 31, 2022 01:21PM

Ernie,
The number of guides on a rod should be based on NEED.

i.e. do NOT put any more guides on a rod to give the performance that you wish to have from a fishing rod.

i.e. if a guide does not serve a useful purpose, do not put that guide on the rod.

Another way to look at it - a guide is ONLY needed to direct line flow over a rod as it is brining in a fish on a loaded blank.

i.e. you do want every part of the rod blank to be loaded as designed by the rod designer. You do want the line to follow the contour of the loaded blank. In other word, if the blank does not bend at a point of the rod and if the line is following the contour of the loaded blank - do not put a guide at that spot.

i.e. when casting many rods where the blank experiences a minimal amount of flexing - one could use perhaps 3 or 4 guides and have a really great casting rod. But, especially, if the rod happens to be a smower action rod - such that under a heavy load, the entire length of the rod becomes bent - then one might need to have 10-15 guides - to insure that the line follows the flow of the fully loaded blank.

This entire industry of rod building is based on a compromise. i.e. what is good for one fisherman catching one type of fish - compared to a different fish being caught by a different fisherman - a compromise judgement is made as to the best balance in the number of guides necessary to satisfy the wishes and needs of fisherman A, compared to the wishes and needs of fisherman B.

Simply put, if a guide is not required to keep the line off of the rod blank and if a guide is not required to have the line follow the contour of the loaded blank - plus a dozen more reasons - then - do not put on that particular guide on the blank.

Summary - use just enough guides on a rod - to do the job to catch the fish of your dreams with a particular fishing rod. Any more guides than that is wasteful, adds weight and serves no useful purpose except to make it look different and that is not necessarily in a good way.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: chris c nash (---.atmc.net)
Date: July 31, 2022 01:31PM

I side with Phil on this one . You don't just add more guides simply because there's room to do so , the blank itself will tell you where it needs the support and where it doesn't . The one thing I don't pay any mind to regarding the Fuji KR concept is it's recommendations on running guides and that's because the KR concept guidelines DOES NOT take into account each individual blanks flexibility traits which are never the same .

Running guide decisions should never be made simply based on a certain blanks overall length, (But they often are) each blanks individual power/stiffness and action will tell you how many running guides would be most beneficial and appropriate .

When I started using the KR concept I followed it precisely and always ended up deciding to remove a running guide or two after fishing it for a while . My 8 foot inshore rods have a total of 8 guides + the tip top and they perform to perfection for me , fish fighting ability is outstanding as is the casting and overall handling.

On another note the 20-10-5.5 reduction train is a favorite of mine .

If you're unsure just experiment , you will know after fishing it for a while if it's as good as it can be.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: July 31, 2022 03:11PM

Has anyone suffered from a broken rod because of fighting a fish with a rod with "too few guides"? If so, please reply, and state the breaking strength of the leader in use at that time.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
Date: July 31, 2022 03:22PM

Ernie, there are plenty rod building taboos and if you follow them you will be building rods like you see in WalMart..not built for performance but for money, that may be what you hope to do some day and they all are alike in performance..plenty of company..lol..Performance does not come cheap..That,s your first clue..lol.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2022 03:46PM by ben belote.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: July 31, 2022 04:10PM

Sorry Phil. I've never broken a rod on a fish. Stepped on them, caught the tip on my shoe, jammed them into a bulkhead while transporting, broke a glass casting rod on a cast. Never on a fish.

It will be interesting to see the answers to your question. But keep in mind that you're talking to builders who probably have no experience with a rod with "too few guides." Unless it's experience from before they knew how to properly build a rod.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
Date: July 31, 2022 04:46PM

I just do not see how you can have too many guides using today's modern guides..They weigh nothing nothing the weight comes from gobs of epoxy on the wraps Saturating the thread all the way to the blank.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: July 31, 2022 04:54PM

Ben,
Really???

Yes, you can have too many guides, no matter the guides you use.

For example you said that you can't have too many guids using todays guides.

All right you have a 6 foot medium action fast - fishing rod blank.

Do you think that 50 guides is too many to put on that rod?

Remember, you said, "you can never put too many guides on a rod using today's modern guides.".

Of course 50 is totally unrealistic. But, be careful what you say, someone may take your statement literally.

For example, are 5 guides too many?

Are 10 guides too many?

Are 15 guides too many?

Are 20 guides too many?

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
Date: July 31, 2022 05:42PM

my point is that it,s an exaggeration to scare new builders into thinking that fewer guides is better period..when another two or three more will create a rod that is more functional..G o into WalMart and look at their anemic rods..they all need two or three more guides if not four..They sacrifice performance for a few bucks more..But they have to, we don't do we? One of my specialty rods is a cold water spinnerbait rod..I cannot by ugly sticks anymore to make it..So I purchase it from WaalMart and remake it to get what I,m looking for..The main change is to take off the guides and put on twice as many.,That one change turns the rod into a tiger and I do some other things like sanding the solid tip to get a certain flex...You can,t change the taper on any rod brand except ugly sticks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2022 05:54PM by ben belote.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 31, 2022 05:51PM

Assuming you are using about the same reel on both rods, your butt guide and choke guide will be in the same position. So the only thing that is going to be different is the additional 6 inches on the 765. I'd think you could probably get by with one additional guide instead of two, although you might have to re-space a few of the running guides by just a tad. Either way, 8 guides on a 7 foot rod and 9 on a 7-1/2 would not be too many. Given the light weight of most modern guides used in these type guide systems, even 10 might be okay on the 7-1/2. Keep your wraps short and your finish light. You'll be okay.

.............

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: July 31, 2022 06:58PM

I think 10 will be fine.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: chris c nash (---.atmc.net)
Date: July 31, 2022 09:28PM

I hope we aren't confusing " Will Work" or "Will be OK " with the word optimal . Sure it will be OK , heck you can use 15 guides and it would still work reasonable well .

Ben I agree with you 100% on Walmart type rods , those always have the absolute minimum guides applied . My philosophy is use as many running guides as the blank tells you it needs and each blank will be different , would you use the same amount of running guides on a blank that bends like a pretzel throughout it's entire length compared to a blank that only bends at the very tip ? I certainly wouldn't .

I myself don't make decisions on the amount of running guides that I will use based on a rods overall length . I need a little more info before deciding but everybody's different and regardless of what people say most will do it the way they have always done it and there's nothing wrong with that , everybody will have a different definition of acceptable . I wish I could be content with a rod that performs good but I never am, I'm exceedingly difficult to please when it comes to rod performance which I hate lol.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: John DeMartini (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: August 01, 2022 12:35AM

For spinning and bait casting;

I start with an old rule "a guide for each foot of rod plus one". I tape the guides to the blank run some static line line pulls check the lay of the line along the blank adjust the guides and add or eliminate a guide if required.

Once satisfied with the static pull, I put on the reel and do some casting and fishing and make any further adjustments, when I am satisfied the way the rod handles I record the location of the guides and prepare the blank for wrapping and finishing.

Its kind of like cooking soup I take a sip as I add ingredients until I am satisfied its ready for the table.
Have fun






.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: August 01, 2022 07:51AM

I do as John with rod length plus one..I ty off to something solid, make a few Yanks to get an idea of rod stiffness..Then add a guide or two a make some Yanks which now should feel stiffer..add another guide and test..You will reach a point where you feel very little or no change..You have found the optimum guide count for that rod to get the strongest hook set and maximum fish fighting control..To me guide count and position are what custom rod building is all about..The guides bring out the best in a rod..If you skimp on it, you are just building another Walmart rod.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2022 07:58AM by ben belote.

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: Ron Schneider (---.mid.dyn.suddenlink.net)
Date: August 01, 2022 08:26AM

We ran into something interesting years ago.
I was working with a local fisherman that wanted to aim for the world record Striper on 2# test line.
We were using Loomis 10' "noodle " rod blanks, Penn casting type reels
They were wrapped in a "turnover" style, sz 5 running guides.
I think we ended up with 15 or 16 guides total.
With fewer, the line would make a fairly sharp bend from guide to guide.
Remember, this was a "noodle" rod that bent all the way into the handle.
The lesson was that with that light line and big fish,
(he eventually did set the record at 33# on 2#line)
too few guides caused the line to "over-heat" and break, sometimes 100' from the fish end.
The that was proof to me that too few can be detrimental to the line,
Also want to mention that we have for years been building on the straightest axis.

Best wishes,
Ron Schneider
Schneider's Rod Shop
Mountain Home, Arkansas
[www.schneidersrods.com]
schndrod@suddenlink.net
870-424-3381

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Re: Too many guides?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: August 01, 2022 08:51AM

Regarding: "They weigh nothing nothing the weight comes from gobs of epoxy on the wraps Saturating the thread all the way to the blank."

As many will recall, I can check the True Natural Frequency of blanks and rods. That process reliably measures a significant difference between the TNF with SS KB/KT size 4 guides and titanium KB/KT size 4 guides. While the guides are small and don't weigh much, Mother Nature and the rules of physics still prevail.

Obviously the difference is not a deal-breaker. Both setups will fish well. But for those in this group who are obsessed with making things light and optimum, it is important to remember that to argue that there is no difference is incorrect.

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