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Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: Ernie Blum (---)
Date: July 25, 2022 09:12AM

I tried not to have to ask this question by looking into old posts, but I was unsuccessful. Prepping the blank with whatever method you choose seems to almost be universal here on the board, but that's where it seems to end. I don't build and have not built a ton of rods to date, but I have put a bunch together going back as far as 30 years or more. I was originally taught to scuff up the areas on the blank where epoxy would be applied, and for what seemed logical to me, I usually tried to do the same inside the barrel of the reel seat. I usually roll a piece of sandpaper to fit the inside of the seat, and do my best to scuff up the surface as best I can. So far, I have never had one break loose yet.

My logic is that "a chain is only as strong as its weakest link". Is there any merit to this?

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: July 25, 2022 09:19AM

As we say in engineering, "When in doubt, make it stout."

I too prep both sides. I run reamers through my seats and sometimes order a size below to ream them to fit the blank perfectly without arbor, pending on what seat it is.

On a rod that is painted or gloss finished I find it a necessity to at least prep the blank. To prep both is better. Cleaning them both prior to assembly is another sometimes forgotten step.

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 25, 2022 09:49AM

Yes, the inside of the seat should be prepped as well. But don't do too much scuffing. There is a proper way to prep surfaces. Here it is:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

.............

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: Ernie Blum (---)
Date: July 25, 2022 09:57AM

Thank you guys. I feel better now! :-)

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: Herb Ladenheim (185.187.243.---)
Date: July 25, 2022 10:50AM

Not only that - you should wet-out the inside of he seat with epoxy before installing also.
Herb
CTS

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: John DeMartini (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: July 25, 2022 12:27PM

I will give you the safe answer.

Follow the instructions of the manufacturer, because if one has issues with the product the first question asked is “did you follow the manufacturer’s instructions”.

If you deviate from the MFG recommendations and the results exceeds expectation you are a winner, if it does not then resort back to the manufacturer’s instructions or try another variation.

It really doesn't matter what is being bonded the basic surface prep is summed up simply

Clean.....Abrade....clean*.

* The second clean is a dry wipe to remove hard particles left from abrading.

It should go without saying but, make sure the bond is fully cured before using.

Have fun

John



.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/25/2022 02:23PM by John DeMartini.

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 25, 2022 12:32PM

Clean, scour, bond. No second cleaning which can often lead to contamination.

And be careful with any abrading - epoxy likes smooth, de-glossed surfaces, not deeply scratched ones.

...........

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: July 26, 2022 11:55AM

I will be a bit of a contrarian:

Yes, I understand the theory about the aforementioned methods about prepping things before gluing things up.

For myself - ever since I started building rods, I have to admit, I don't believe that I have ever scuffed a blank before gluing up.

When I receive a blank, before building - I will wipe the blank down with soap and water and let dry for a few days before starting to build.

Then, I just take my items, grip, arbors, reel seat and epoxy and glue it all together.

I will say that I am very generous with the glue and insure that all surfaces to be glued are well coated before setting aside to dry.

But, without a doubt, the suggestion is to scuff the surface before gluing.

Take care

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: July 26, 2022 12:49PM

I made a good number of rods before learning about the prep methods here and never had a failure of a seat or grip to blank. Now that I know them, I use them. I am, like Roger, generous with the epoxy. I totally encapsulate arbors.

One easy way to prep the ID of a seat or similar part is to put a strip of Scotchbrite into the patch slot of a shotgun cleaning tip and drive the top section of the cleaning rod with a drill driver. Run it through the ID a few times.

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: Ernie Blum (---.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
Date: July 26, 2022 02:11PM

Herb Ladenheim Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not only that - you should wet-out the inside of
> he seat with epoxy before installing also.
> Herb
> CTS

If I understand correctly, you are saying that the ID of the reel seat should itself be coated with epoxy before being set into place. Just to be certain...you are then running the gummed up reel seat the entire length of the rod down to its proper resting place....and then going back to clean up the blank?

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 26, 2022 02:23PM

Water-Break-Free surface prep isn't a theory. It's an accepted best practice by the people who formulated modern epoxy systems. It is the practice used by the aerospace industry.

.......

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: July 26, 2022 02:37PM

Ernie,
I coat the inside of the grip, by applying a generous coat of epoxy on the rod blank several inches above the final location. As I slide it down the blank, I rotate the reel seat to insure that 100% of the inside of the reeel seat is coated as is the full surface of the rod blank under the glued on components.

Then, there is only about 10 inches of grip to wipe down after getting things in place.

Best wishes.

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: July 26, 2022 04:48PM

I don't put epoxy anywhere where it doesn't have to be. I place it on the area of the blank where the seat will be, coat the arbors totally, and rotate and slide the seat into position. Cleanup is almost nothing.

Doing it Roger's way clearly works for him, but I don't want to put it where it has to be cleaned up, worrying that my clean-up may not be perfect. And I'm lazy. Don't want the extra work when I don't think it is necessary. Better to call it "efficient."

Tom, I think the issue is not whether Water-Break-Free is the best practice, it's whether it is necessary for a strong bond. You have stated many times regarding processes that while not the strongest, if they are strong enough, that's fine. I think Roger's experience indicates that just gluing them on with the proper amount of epoxy, using his process, is "strong enough." I prefer to do the Water-Break-Free best practice because it makes good technical sense, will take off any wax/mold release/anything else from the manufacturing process in case its there, and I'm confident I've done all I can to ensure a good build. Personally, I think it makes a lot more sense than putting several inches of epoxy on the blank above where it will be finally located then having to carefully clean it off.

As has been said many times on this forum. Do whatever works for you.

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: Leslie Cline (---)
Date: July 26, 2022 06:21PM

I read an article by the inventor of Rod Bond (and actually had dinner with him at an EXPO event) who said he actually WAXED the rod and all the parts before gluing together - and still got a good bond! NOW MIND YOU!.... this statement was part of the article on creating a water-break-free surface as a Best Practice. Adhesion strength vs shear strength....and the difference between the two. Old Dutch Cleanser, and a certain 3M abrasive pad that literally orients the molecules of the surface for MAX bond! ....you gotta read the article (Rod Maker - Tom?)

His company, Trondac, was named after a dog his research team had as a pet while working on developing some of the early laminating systems for aerospace materials, if I remember correctly. It is a mic drop moment from a brilliant mind in adhesion!

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: Leslie Cline (---)
Date: July 26, 2022 06:22PM

Ralph O'Quinn!!

Geesh, my brain cells!

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Re: Prepping for epoxy...why just the blank?
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: July 26, 2022 07:39PM

Michael Danek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't put epoxy anywhere where it doesn't have
> to be. I place it on the area of the blank where
> the seat will be, coat the arbors totally, and
> rotate and slide the seat into position. Cleanup
> is almost nothing.
>
> Doing it Roger's way clearly works for him, but I
> don't want to put it where it has to be cleaned
> up, worrying that my clean-up may not be perfect.
> And I'm lazy. Don't want the extra work when I
> don't think it is necessary. Better to call it
> "efficient."
>

> Tom, I think the issue is not whether
> Water-Break-Free is the best practice, it's
> whether it is necessary for a strong bond. You
> have stated many times regarding processes that
> while not the strongest, if they are strong
> enough, that's fine. I think Roger's experience
> indicates that just gluing them on with the proper
> amount of epoxy, using his process, is "strong
> enough." I prefer to do the Water-Break-Free best
> practice because it makes good technical sense,
> will take off any wax/mold release/anything else
> from the manufacturing process in case its there,
> and I'm confident I've done all I can to ensure a
> good build. Personally, I think it makes a lot
> more sense than putting several inches of epoxy on
> the blank above where it will be finally located
> then having to carefully clean it off.
>
> As has been said many times on this forum. Do
> whatever works for you.


Assuming that the best practice, in this case a water-break-free surface, isn't difficult and takes no extra time nor costs anything additional, I'd go with that best practice.

.............

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